Meeting our own Universal Needs – Intellectual Wellness – with Claire Brummell

Show notes – 

Join Shannon and Christine as they chat about Intellectual Wellness with their special guest Claire Brummell.

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Resources mentioned this podcast:

https://www.5lovelanguages.com/

https://clairebrummell.medium.com/why-we-need-more-than-maslow-in-a-global-crisis-4519413afc44

Show Transcript – 

NOTE: While it’s not perfect, we offer this transcription by Otter.ai for those who are hearing impaired or who don’t find listening to a podcast enjoyable or possible.

Shannon M. 0:23
Hello, hello, hello. How are you?

Christine Gautreaux 0:28
I am good. Good. I am good it is. It has been an incredibly busy and full week but just you know full of delight. It is spring and the plants are bursting forth with all their awesomeness.

Shannon M. 0:48
Enjoying the different colors and seeing the order that the different trees blossom and everything listening to the birds, you know me?

Christine Gautreaux 0:58
Yeah. I love it. How you’re traveling this week, right?

Shannon M. 1:02
Yes, I am. So I’m in the historic city. I mean, we’ve been to a couple of different cities, we’ve been in Philly, we’re in New Jersey, in Pleasantville. So I was able to see the Liberty Bell for the first time. That’s, you know, went on a horse and buggy. Tour, that was great. And the weather has been incredible. So thankful for the opportunity to travel and for the time flexibility. You know, I love to look at that the time and financial side of the situation. And it’s been great.

Christine Gautreaux 1:33
I love it. Yeah, I it was pre pandemic, when I got to see the Liberty Bell for the first time doing some work with with Sheila, when we were doing Stillpoint work all around the world. And it was it was fascinating. I love going to new places and checking out new things.

Shannon M. 1:51
You know, that’s one of my favorite things to do is thanks for the first time. And talking about Liberty talking about intellectual wellness this week, we’ll get to the definition here in a second. But that’s what I think about, you know, the freedom that learning new information gives you that being connected being wise gives you and what you do with the Liberty after that. So it’s been really interesting thinking about it from that perspective.

Christine Gautreaux 2:16
Now, I have a question, are you I think I know the answer this because I know you pretty well, my friend. But when you go to a new place like that, because we’re talking about intellectual wellness today, do you read all the signs? Like do you go and just kind of soak it in and take pictures? Or do you read all the signs and everything around it?

Shannon M. 2:36
So both it’s interesting, as a picture taker I am working on including myself and the pictures, you know, I used to say I want to go to all these amazing patient places and take the calendar pictures myself, right? I want them to be my pictures, not just somebody else’s. And then I was talking to a woman somewhere connected, you know how we are. And she said, make sure you’re in the pictures. I said, You know what? You’re right. So pitcher’s is definitely a thing for the memories, but also soaking it in. I love reading the plaques and the different pieces of information that they found important. But I also don’t stress over getting every single one how part of me wants to because I know that we might be staying on time or you’re, you know, you need to come back and do it a couple of times, maybe so I don’t pressure myself to get to everything.

Christine Gautreaux 3:25
Right. Or depending on where you are. There’s just not enough time. Right. The first time I went to Savannah, Georgia. I have you been to that town in a while? Yeah, no, right. Okay. Okay. So Savannah, Georgia is a very historical town, you know, for a lot of reasons, good and bad, mostly dead.

Honestly, it’s, you know, it’s one of the places that a lot of slave ships came in, in Georgia. And there are historical markers all over that town. So when I had just moved to Georgia, my aunt and uncle were like, Hey, we think we have an ancestor that’s on a historical marker. And Savannah, I’m like, oh, yeah, let’s go find it. Let’s go look, right, totally ignorant about how many historical markers are actually in the city of Savannah, Georgia.

And that was almost impossible. Like, I don’t think we ever found that marker. And it was, it was a very big learning curve and a learning experience, right when you go to a new place because I’m a Leaper. Like I like to just go and discover, I don’t often plan the trips ahead of time.

Well, I don’t I I get there and then I Google, like the historical sites, or what’s the quirkiest things to do? Or what are the fun things to do? That’s how I like to learn. I like a little bit of spontaneity. And then like if something catches my attention, I’m going to go deeper and deeper with it. Yeah,

Shannon M. 4:49
I think now that you say it like that, the way I like to do new cities, actually this has been my experience so far is that I’m there with a native or somebody who really knows the area and then And they show me places and I have my own experience. And I kind of do it that way. That’s how I didn’t do Orleans. That’s how I’ve done Atlantic City and New Jersey for the past few times. I’ve been up here. And Costa Rica was similar. We we met Asia on the podcast, right. We had gone to college together, we’re always together at Kennesaw State. And she went over there as one of her teaching assignments. And I met her over there. So she knew a lot about it. And it was great.

Christine Gautreaux 5:25
That’s super awesome. Should we actually do our intro for today and get this podcast kicked off?

Shannon M. 5:32
Yes, sir. So I am Shannon Mitchell, a black millennial business owner, the founder of Shilo glow, LLC, and all natural handmade shea butter company. I am a champion for your natural self care and practical business systems.

Christine Gautreaux 5:49
Hey, y’all. I’m Christine Gautreaux, a white social justice advocate and international speaker, coach dancing social worker and published author who helps you upgrade yourself and community care.

Shannon M. 6:01
Yes, together. We are women connected in wisdom, a podcast grounded in the eight dimensions of wellness.

Christine Gautreaux 6:06
And we like to get together every week and invite special guests to come in for intentional conversations about how to be wise in business relationships and wellness.

And y’all I can’t wait to introduce you to our guests today. And to also I don’t know, I kind of want to just jump in. But before we do that, Shannon, is there anything else you want to talk about? Oh, hmm.

Shannon M. 6:33
I don’t know. So and this is something I work on. Right? What especially when we talk about intellectual wellness, the way that you see things I work on not being vain. We are top 10 in the world now though, so I have to be

Christine Gautreaux 6:44
mindful of my 10% not top 10 Let’s be really clear. percent.

Shannon M. 6:51
Okay, top 2% Yes, of the world. And I was thinking about it today, we went out to breakfast and I’m thinking about my makeup. And it’s just no, we’re not going to do it.

You know, so we’re supporting women and our voices. And I was telling the ladies so you so the listeners know before we came on camera that the reason I decided to not go with makeup was because in one of my psychology classes at Kennesaw State I learned that people listen to and learn more from people who they find attractive, and whose face is symmetrical, which was interesting.

Thankfully, I have a symmetrical face. Thankfully, the street say I’m beautiful, and I feel very beautiful with or without makeup. So talk to him person in the world. I want you to still come on how I am with no makeup and still having the conversation about being well and connected in wisdom.

Christine Gautreaux 7:39
Beautiful, my friend, you are beautiful. I’m glad that you came on as you are and who you are. I think that’s powerful. Right? And one of our listeners, Serena says, I think you look beautiful, Shannon, so thank you, Serena.

Yeah, y’all today, our guest, I am so excited about this. And one of the reasons I’m really excited about this is that our guest was one of the first people that gave us pushback as a listener, and really listened to one of our podcasts very early on, and she’ll tell you which podcast it was. I was like, you know, I don’t agree with that. I think we need to update that. And we were like, tell us more. Let’s have this conversation. And so we’ve been trying to get our we’ve been trying to get this next guest on for about a year and our schedules have just been not not connecting. So we’re really excited to connect today.

So Shannon, if you will read us the definition. And then we I will read her bio, and we’re gonna get our guests up here and have some fun.

Shannon M. 8:51
Absolutely. So again, today we’re talking about intellectual wellness, and intellectual wellness refers to active participation in Scholastic, cultural and community activities. It is important to gain and maintain intellectual wellness, because it expands knowledge and skills in order to live a stimulating and successful life. In order to improve intellectual wellness, it is important to value creativity, curiosity, and lifelong learning. And this definition is from the University of Illinois.

Christine Gautreaux 9:25
I love it. I love it. And I know we are playing with definitions. And we are working on our own versions of these definitions as we get ready for our book to come out the school. Yeah, right. Right. Just all kinds of fun stuff happening around here. And I can go ahead. No,

Shannon M. 9:45
I’m sorry. Go ahead and finish.

Christine Gautreaux 9:47
I was just saying I am having a little tech issue over here. So if you’ll keep talking for just a second, I will be right back with you.

Shannon M. 9:54
Yeah. And that’s part of what we’re working on. What we’re going to talk about today with our guests, right? No Sexual wellness? And who makes the rules that you follow? Who defines it for you? And actually, I think that was one of our guests. We were having that conversation. But what is the foundation of that look like? Really this is when I think about what we’re going to talk about. It’s why I was so excited to talk about the eight dimensions of wellness. It’s why I think it’s so relevant for all of our guests, because it really does base every other decision off of your needs and how it’s met. And the dimension that you’re thinking about. Are you wise in this dimension? Are you well, are you working on your illness? So I’m excited to have the conversation about what we need?

Christine Gautreaux 10:39
Let’s do it. Let’s bring her up. Are you ready? Yes. All right, y’all. Our next guest is an international consultant and expert in human behavior. Claire is the creator and founder of the universal needs. It’s a proprietary model and methodology specialize it she specializes in business, HR, leadership and mental health. So we want to were welcome to the stage Claire. How are you?

Claire Brummell 11:08
I am I’m great. And I You’re right. It’s a lot been a long time coming. It’s so funny listening to you introduce me. Anyone who knows me goes Oh, yeah, I’ll be the one to push back. On, you said that. I’d forgotten. That was what happened.

Christine Gautreaux 11:23
I have to tell you, we were so excited, right? Because what we tell our listeners what episode you listen to, it was

Claire Brummell 11:32
season two, Episode 16. So it’s a little right.

Christine Gautreaux 11:36
So episode 16. Y’all, I want to set the stage for y’all. We knew we had one or two listeners, like we knew we had our friends, we had our family. But we get Claire who? I can’t remember what it was on a part of a community printers, which you’ve heard us mention on this podcast before for intentional business leaders, and who are making a social impact. And we I think it was one one of those things, you listen to podcasts, you commented and you said, Hey, would you say,

Claire Brummell 12:11
Oh, I met I mentioned about the fact that you’ve mentioned Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs several times. And I said there’s that it’s actually quite a problematic model. And it’s quite outdated. And it’s really an effective. And maybe we should be looking at a new model that’s more relevant and inclusive to where we are today.

Christine Gautreaux 12:29
And I was like, okay, so you taught me something that all my years as a social worker, and as a social justice worker, I did not know, will you share with our listeners, why Maslow’s hierarchy of needs is problematic from the get go.

Claire Brummell 12:46
I mean, how long have you got, we could do an entire podcast on that.

There are there are a number of different elements, I mean, fundamentally, things like that there are needs missing, it doesn’t focus on our responsibility for our own needs, or teaching us how to meet our own needs. But really fundamentally, one of the biggest issues is that his work was generously borrowed.

And that’s a direct quote from an article about this from the Blackfeet Nation, which is a a indigenous tribe in Alberta, Canada. And he spent some time with them. And what he did was he actually took a model of being which they had, which was part of the cultural heritage, and pretty much stripped it of all of the cultural references and the community references that actually made it work. And it was the things that made it relevant. And what he did was he made it very capitalistic, and it’s so like, very individualistic about individual, like trying to create create that, that self actualization point that that goal that we’re trying to get to. And not only did, did he do that, but that’s one of the things that’s really, that’s really difficult in his model.

And actually, with a lot of press development pieces that I see out there, which is that they’re very much focused on the individual, as like an isolated being, rather than recognizing, yes, we have to focus on ourselves. But we have to do in a way that is community conscious. And that is inspiring to not only not do harm to the community, but actually also support and build it and do it in a way that’s sustainable for everybody.

Christine Gautreaux 14:22
Oh, I love that so much. That is like literally what we are about clear, like the wellness piece, and how do we meet our own needs? And how do we do it? Yes, we’re doing it on our own. And we’re doing it in community, that whole interconnected piece, right. So tell us about the universal needs. Like I know it’s gonna be hard to get this all in in like one show, but I want I want our listeners.

What you are doing is Andre, Andrea. I’m not sure if I’m saying that. I love that Claire. Awesome. So um, Tell us about the universal needs this new I mean, it really is. That’s why we paired you with intellectual wellness, because it is a new way of thinking about this, and you are the creator of it. And I found I find it fascinating and that everybody needs to know about this. So I want you to just take the floor and tell our listeners what it is and, and what you do.

Claire Brummell 15:23
Okay, so I think probably the easiest way of kind of summarizing that is that we teach that there are seven keys to getting all of your needs consistently met.

So I’ll try and go through those super quickly because it might touch on the ways in which we will, it will touch on the ways in which we’re different.

So the first thing is, in order to get your needs consistently met, you need to know what they are. And there are a lot of needs that are missing from the other needs models out there. And so we teach that there are 12 needs and the 12 needs correspond or they fall into four groups.

And the four groups correspond to the four different sections of a tree. So at the roots of the tree, you have your survival needs. So these are the ways these are the knees that you will find a way meeting, healthy, unhealthy, empowering, disappearing, serving you not serving you’ll find a way because it’s linked to our very survival, then you go up to the trunk of the tree, the trunk of the tree is your intrinsic needs.

So these are the needs that relate to our internal well being our emotional well being our sense of value, our sense of empowerment. And once we’ve got our foundation, which is the root and our core, which is the trunk from there, we can grow into the branches of the tree.

So the branches of the tree are expansive needs. This is about our expansion, it’s about once we’ve got those foundations from there, we can grow and expand and interconnect a little bit more with the world around us. And then the leaves and the fruit of the tree are the enriching meat. So these are the needs that give us a deeper experience of ourselves and a deeper experience of life.

So that’s like the very first step is like you need to know what the needs are. Secondly, you need to know that it is possible to meet a lot of your own needs for yourself, we never get taught this. So when it comes to meeting our needs, what what a lot of us, we imagined when we grow up on this planet, we were born on this planet, we have no ability to meet any of our own needs. What happens is when one of our needs isn’t being met, what happens alarm system goes off, the baby starts crying. And we learn that for a lot of us caregivers will try and attempt to meet the needs for us. And so we have this dynamic of work like when we need something that somebody else will try and come and meet meet that need for us.

And while a lot of us, our caregivers knew they had to teach us how to physically survive, they didn’t teach us how to meet our own mental and emotional needs as well.

So a lot of us are physically walking around like adults, but emotionally and mentally, we’re still relating to our needs, the way that children do, because we’re still looking to the world around us to get our needs met.

Now, there’s a caveat in there in that we do need we are social creatures, we do need connection, we need community, we need relationship. But this is about removing dependency on other people and other situations to get our needs met and be able to meet these at a base level for ourselves.

So first, but what the fact that is it possible for us to meet our needs. The second is we need to know how to meet our needs in ways that are actually going to fulfill us. So if you imagine that we just talked about the tree, which is the knees.

So that’s what the need is the way of meeting our needs sit somewhere on a spectrum, because it’s just as important that we’re meeting our needs as what the need is.

And at one end of the spectrum, we call it the red spectrum, this is the I describe it as the TV dinner or fast food way of meeting needs, where you are, you’re you’re you might be doing a lot of stuff to meet your needs. But there’s no real nourishment in there, it might satiate the hunger for a short period of time, but there’s none of what the body is actually craving in there. So once you’ve had it, you’re gonna want something again very quickly.

So at that end of the spectrum, you can be doing a lot of stuff to meet your needs, but actually not be getting much benefit from it. And that’s the way we’re socially conditioned to get our needs met.

The other end of the spectrum is the green end of the spectrum, which is the whole food home cooked, nutritionally balanced way of meeting these, we’re not only does it satiate the hunger, it actually provides the nourishment that we’re seeking.

So we say fuller for longer. So that end of the spectrum, we can be doing much less to meet our needs, take doing things that are quick, easy and very simple, but getting that level of fulfillment that we’re really seeking.

So that’s the how we need to know it’s our responsibility to meet our needs, which is the fourth key. And that actually, as adults, we need to take on that responsibility for not only getting ourselves clothed and fed and going out and earning a living, but our emotional and mental well being is also our responsibility. And then the next two are really where we kind of start to separate ourselves from the other things that are out there. And that is we need to be aware of equity when it comes to the meeting our needs, and that we live in a society in which we are not all on an even playing field when it comes to meeting our needs.

The more privilege we have, the less barriers we have to get our basic needs met.

And so what we need to be aware of is where we sit in that inequity and what that means for both our meeting of our own needs, but also our responsibility for actually addressing that inequity in order that it’s easier for other people to get their needs met as well. And the reason for that latter part is because of the next key the next key is interconnectedness. And this is a piece of us kind of stripped out of Maslow’s model which is that we as human beings His are interconnected.

Our humanity connects us.

And what that means is if we meet our needs in ways that have a side consequence of harming others, whether we’re aware of it, whether we notice it, it actually erodes our own needs in our own well being as well. If we meet our needs in ways that have a side consequence of benefiting others, it actually benefits as needs even more. And that’s why because of that interconnectedness, once we recognize that we’re not in an equitable society, so we’re not all on uneven playing field, where we hold more privilege, we have more responsibility to be making that effort to be evening that the playing for wherever we can. And then the seventh key is consistency.

So a lot of people do what I call roller coaster, self care, self care, we it has been commodified and commercialized. But self care is basically nothing more than meeting our own needs. And what happens is, it’s like they like we’re in a situation where we’re on vacation, and all our needs are being met.

So right, we’re riding high on the roller coaster. And then the next minute, we’re back at work and deadlines, screaming, and we’re stressed out and everything, and we plumb it. And so consistency is about creating a consistent practice. And we teach within our work, a daily practice, which takes between five and 15 minutes a day, and make sure all of your needs are actually met. So you can create that consistency with not only getting your needs met, but keeping them there. And being able to therefore have a more sustainable approach to getting our needs and needs. Not only getting them that that same fulfilled.

Christine Gautreaux 21:25
Right, but how you’re different but how, what I love about this, Claire is how in depth and thoughtful and really looking at all the dimensions, right? We talk about this often on this podcast, is that there’s we talk about the eight dimensions of wellness, but they’re all interconnected, right? Like, it is all like, yes, we can talk about the physical part.

But if you’re not talking about the emotional and mental, forget about it, you’re really not sitting in a place of wellness, right? And there’s times that we’re looking at different spaces. That consistency. Who, yeah, as somebody who identifies as neurodivergent, that is one of the most challenging ones for me. And I, I do that one by scheduling. And I mean, the listeners have heard me talk about this before, but it is literally in my calendar, like, go take a walk, go outside. And you know, like there are things that I scheduled on my calendar on my counter, like, what you need to be reminded of that? Well, yes, I do. Yes, I do.

Claire Brummell 22:38
That’s the thing is that a lot of people when they come to, to us to learn about their universal nice is that they’re expecting me to give them a prescription, it’s like, here are the things that we need to go and do. And that’s not how we operate.

Our methodology is all about how do we help you discover the ways of meeting your needs that work for you, that does it the ways that work for you, not just in that red green spectrum idea that I was talking about, but also from a personal perspective, because the things that are going to meet your needs, Christine, or your needs, Shannon are going to be different to the things that really boosts my needs. And we want to be spoke focusing on the things that are going to take sort of the smallest amount of time and energy, they’re gonna give us the biggest amount of benefit when it comes to that level of needs fulfillment.

Christine Gautreaux 23:19
Right. She’s gonna say something so I’m pausing for you

Shannon M. 23:28
know, you’re fine. Claire, I know you had something you wanted to add, go ahead and add your bit in and I’ll hop

Claire Brummell 23:33
right um, the only other thing I was gonna say is when you were talking about the different dimensions of wellness, I was I was actually showing sharing with Christine and Shannon, just before we got on as a little research before coming on today, I went back and looked at I listened to the last 10 episodes that they recorded, which spanned all eight dimensions, and needs came up in every single episode.

Either the word needs the concept of needs, we talked about basic necessities in one of the relationship ones, or the actual individual needs that appear in the universal needs model, they were being spoken about and consistently and frequently. And that’s the thing is that these needs are the foundation of everything, and they’re fundamental to creating wellness in all of these different areas of our lives.

Shannon M. 24:18
And, Christine, that’s really how I think about them. You know, just like Christine said, Serena, we see your love the heart on it, right. Christina had mentioned it about how even with her experience, she had been using Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, you know, myself with a bachelor’s degree in psychology, just like I had never heard of the eight dimensions of wellness had never heard of any other system outside of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs.

But of course, as a student of color, realizing that things are taught differently and depending on when it started and when you found out about it in which source you found out about it from there’s going to be different wordings of things in the context of the words that are used.

Very important. It and how you apply it. So if in Western culture, we are more individualistic, it makes sense why that’s been the system. But we know that as humans, in the entire world, we need each other, like, right now we’re streaming on social media, we’re here together, because if I could be in this room by myself, and that was all I needed, then we would live differently.

But that’s not real life, you know. So even with the, quote, unquote, pushback, for me, that’s the beauty of women connecting and wisdom, it’s somebody say, Hey, you have a tag out, hey, it’s not your nose ring. It’s a booger in your nose.

You don’t consider everything, you’ll be missing part of it. And we wonder why it feels selfish to take self care, because maybe when we are finally prioritizing ourselves, we’re not doing it in a healthy way. And that’s important as well, for the sustainability of it, you know, and for them, the added benefit to the health of everybody involved,

Claire Brummell 25:57
right? Well, we took one of the things that we teach about the universal knees is about being self first now. So first is a hashtag that was being used on social media, but it didn’t really seem to have any definition. And we talked about understanding the difference between selfish and self less, and we get taught as a society to be that self less is that is the right answer. And that’s the approach that’s better.

But the reality is, is that selfish and selfless are both actually rooted in unmet needs. Because if you’re, if you’re coming from the selfish, you’re prioritizing your own needs, at the willing to be to the detriment of others, self less is about prioritizing others to the detriment of the self. And unless your needs are actually being consistently met, there’s normally a hidden some subconscious strategy to get your own needs met, that the selfless strategy is being used for.

So both are actually rooted unmet needs. So we teach about being self first, which is about prioritizing your needs, because there are responsibilities we just we just discussed, but do it at the minimum that does not harm others, and sometimes in ways that benefit others. And we talk about it in the context of we obviously talk about the tree as the individual. And we talked about the universal needs ecosystem being like the environment that we’re in both us the system that we live in the the physical environment, and the other trees in the forest, that at the moment, we’re in a system that’s toxic, the entire system is working against everybody getting their needs met.

So once as we meet our needs, and we kind of get more green, we then have to be a part of trying to change this ecosystem that we’re all in so that not only is it not so hard for us to sustain, but it also it actually supports everyone in getting their needs better met. And that creates a healthier environment for everybody involved.

Shannon M. 27:39
Right. And that’s why I like that, that’s the point that you base it off of, it actually reminds me of a ladle. Right, a ladle usually looks heavier at the top, and you wonder how it balances on this very fine point. But it really changes the posture of your heart. And Christina and I were talking about that earlier. How, let’s say if you’re selfless, right, especially as a woman, right? I’m selfless. I’m here for the community, I’m here for my family. But if it’s manipulative, and it’s really because we might not have the articulate the words to articulate it, or this is the only way we’ve been taught how to get what we want. Now we’re here for everybody. But we’re not even able to show up in a fully authentic way, because we’re not full. And that’s what we talked about on one of the shows with genebanks. On I love me more is how do you operate off of a full tank. And to your point clear, it reminds me of this. This will what I usually tell my servers. So you watch the last 10 episodes, I’m officially moved back over to puppet Oh, right. And so all of these pre ships and meetings and things I used to talk about are coming back. And when I talked to my team about teamwork, I remind them that the first step of teamwork is being self sufficient. Because your team has to come save you well guess what? Now they’re off task because you don’t have your test together. That’s different than needing help or not being developed or having an unhealthy environment. Those are conversations but first and the healthy place. Take care of you. So you don’t pull somebody else off. And then if we need to grow together, let’s grow together and continue to elevate Of course.

Claire Brummell 29:11
Absolutely. And that’s the same because we do we do HR consultancy, we actually do often in the hospitality industry. It’s like we need to look at, yes, we have to have the exact level need to understand about need, yes, the management needs to be managing that area, but also the line level needs to be supported in meeting their own needs. Because that’s what creates employee engagement, if their needs are most, most companies, the needs of their staff are being compromised. And that’s why the great resignation has been happening. Everyone’s like, Oh no, I’m not gonna I’m not gonna work for a company that’s costing me that I’m sacrificing myself for. And so it’s really important that we create environment working environments. And this is what obviously Dr. Sarah Brown was talking about on your last episode was about this occupational wellness. It’s about creating environments that not only don’t compromise our needs, but actually also will support the individuals and getting their needs met within the context of their workplace.

Christine Gautreaux 30:00
Right. And I think it’s fascinating what you said. And what Dr. Brown said last week is like, the first step is women knowing what their needs are, like really taking that deep breath and stopping. And checking in and being embodied, you know, the work I do is all about being in your body and knowing what you need. Because I’ve worked with so many women and people actually, that don’t know what they need. Like they’re just on in so many ways. They’re on autopilot, because they’re trying to survive, or they’re, you know, they’re doing what everybody else wants. And they don’t take time to stop and really check in with themselves and figure out, hey, this is what I like, or what I don’t like, this is what my body really responds to, hey, this is my sleeping temperature. Like I’m, I am such a data nerd about stuff like that, like I can tell you, this is the temperature that I sleep the best at. And I’ve had the privilege to be able to do that because I have indoor air can you know, I have central heating there, I grew up in a farmhouse that I didn’t have that. So I always think about, I think that’s one of the things the reasons I know, because I grew up in discomfort, and in times in the winter and summer that I wasn’t comfortable. So now that I have this house, I have that little switch that I can flip. I played with it until I’m like, Oops, I sleep I’ve ever had. Let’s try that again and see if that works.

Shannon M. 31:31
And I love that part of your story, too, Christine, because I think that, let’s say as women, right, since we’re talking on women connected on in wisdom, a lot of times there might be shame or guilt around our pain points, right, our stories or the things that we don’t know. But and we talked about this on a previous episode, that’s how I know where to start, you know, if I need financial literacy, I used to be salaried, and I have an extra $700, where is the money when the pandemic happens, you don’t have it? Well, we need to look at what happened, and then how we can be healthy moving forward, you know, and one of my favorite things that I learned when I was younger about the Native Americans is how they don’t waste anything. You know, and that’s what I’m hearing clear, when you talk about on the community, the community side of it, you know, Christine, meeting her needs might be one thing you mean to your needs by might be another. And the beautiful thing about community is what you Christine wouldn’t have used is exactly what Claire needed. And now everybody is stronger together, we’re less wasteful, we’re more efficient. And again, we’re able to elevate it and keep going from there.

Claire Brummell 32:36
Right. And going back to your point, Christine, about women often not knowing what our needs are. A lot of that is obviously because we’ve been taught to subvert our knees, one of the first things we often do with people is work around their beliefs around needs, because most women believe that they’re not worthy of having their needs met that other people’s needs are more important than theirs, it’s their responsibility to take care of everybody else’s needs, even if they’re adults who have the ability to take care of their own. But then also because we live in a culture where we’ve been societally conditioned to, to not only ignore, but reject actually, like, if you think about the trunk of the tree, that’s one of the areas that we often see, most people have issues because we’re not taught to think about our internal well being, we’re not taught to think about our level of our emotional well being or our value in the world, or how to connect to our power. And that’s one of the things that I often see, like when I we applied to go through and they’re like, Wow, that’s a nice, like, yeah, and then we go through, and then we figure out, that is a need. And they’ve been trying to get it meet met through these other ways. And actually, that was what they were after all along. So having that ability to kind of excavate and go underneath, like, what are the things? What are the patterns of behavior that we’ve been doing? And what are we really trying to get met? What need are we really trying to get met through that? And is that a healthy way of doing it? Or is there another way of doing it that actually is going to be more fulfilling, more nourishing and more sustainable?

Shannon M. 33:57
So Claire, when you have clients who are surprised that what is a need, what are the kinds of the things that usually fall in that category that they’re surprised about?

Claire Brummell 34:08
I would say that one of the things that tends to come a lot, I come up with this value, they don’t recognize that value as an EDA, we have a need to feel important, we have a need to feel worthy, we have a need to feel like we have a right to exist on the planet. And then I think the other one that really kind of comes up for a lot of people. There is is I think people understand this at an intellectual level is security. And that is recognizing that security isn’t just about physical security. It’s about mental, emotional, energetic, all of those aspects come into security. And they think about wanting to feel safe, but a lot of women especially kind of think about safety in a very kind of, okay, I need to be physically safe from going out and around. But out and about and it was interesting. I was listening to your conversation with Chantal about the kind of abusive relationships, we don’t think about emotional safety, and how that emotional manipulation as somebody who’s been in abusive relationships myself in the past, is it’s something that compromises our emotional safety. And one of the things that I find so often with with people, especially when you kind of look at that dynamic, specifically, is that a lot of the time, they’re in the relationships to feel safe, maybe financially safe, maybe physically safe. And they don’t realize that the person through which they’re trying to get their safety and security needs met, is the person who is most undermining and compromising their their security in other ways. And that’s one of the other things that’s an issue with with Maslow’s models, that is that his categories are very broad. So you can be like, Oh, no, I’m meeting that need. And then you’re missing another piece, which is part of the same puzzle, because you don’t realize, actually, it’s all important, and they’re all important to be met, and in really, really supportive ways.

Christine Gautreaux 35:57
Claire, I am so fascinated by this conversation, because as a social worker, I’ve worked with a lot of clients. And then I have some people that I am, you know, my husband’s a great example of this like that had really early trauma, like from losing a parent really early, or things that, that stick with them, like I think of some of the foster and adoptive kids I’ve worked with for years, like things that stick with them for years, like when you’ve had an early emotional trauma, like the death of a parent or the loss of how, how do you? How do you start addressing that? Like, how do you? Because I know I’ve worked with a lot of people? And I have I have my thoughts, but I want to know, coming from your universal need, like how do you really just lift somebody up from that place?

Claire Brummell 36:55
Right? Well, I think that I mean, the first thing is to really understand what trauma is. And we have a definition that we use within the universal needs. And we talk about trauma being there are different types of trauma. So there is a severe trauma, which is where your universal needs have been severely impacted in a short period of time.

So you would have imagined like, like an automobile accident or something like that, where it’s in a short period of time, but everything gets hit like in a severe level in that one time, you then have chronic trauma, which is where your needs are chronically unmet over an extended period of time. And then you have chronic and severe trauma where they’ve been chronically unmet over a long period of time, at a very severe level, that severity could be within one of the individual needs, it’s been severely impacted. Or it could be because there’s a number of different needs that have been severely impacted.

So the first thing is you have to understand what trauma is in the context of these. But the second thing is to recognize and what what I would do with a client is if we were we were looking at this as we will go back to looking at what was the trauma and which needs were impacted by that trauma? And to what extent were they impacted? Was it a sustainable was it sustain thing was it severe thing, and then what we would do is we would look at specifically underpinning those specific needs as part of the healing process. So for example, you gave the example of a childhood trauma. A lot of the the issue with childhood trauma and reason childhood trauma is so traumatic is because as children, we don’t have the ability to meet our own needs, we are we are genuinely dependent on others to get our needs met. So if the loss of a parent, for example, who are the people that we are, we are dependent on to get those needs met, it creates not only a trauma in the moment, but this this terrible fear and the trauma of the how the needs won’t be met in the future. And so what, what we would often do with that is we will actually take people back and allow them we would we often do some inner child work, where we look at the adult in the now going back and parent re parenting that aspect of themselves, looking specifically at the needs that have been compromised and impacted. And how can we not only meet the need in the present moment, but actually go back and make amends to the fact that the need wasn’t met in the first place. I mean, we we talked, we were just recently on our podcast, we did a series on apologies, and what needs to happen. And one of the things is you can address what happened, but one of the aspects is actually you have to make amends for the fact that it happened. And that’s where we need to kind of pour more into those needs to make up for the fact that they were impacted in the first place. So that’s I mean, it’s always different. And that’s what these days everyone like when they are so we are helping meet their needs. soccer balls manicures, like Yeah, no, no.

Christine Gautreaux 39:36
Yeah. You know, on this podcast, we love those. And yeah, and let’s talk about more.

Claire Brummell 39:44
And that’s the thing is this such complexity and nuance is always like it’s always different. Every person is unique. Everyone’s situation is unique. And that’s why it quite often helps if I can work with somebody one on one because I can look at their specific needs. History, their blueprint and the coping mechanism. They can come up with and say, Oh my God, You did such an amazing job, you found a way of coping with this situation, let’s not shame ourselves for that. Let’s now look at other ways of meeting those same needs. And if it feels actually that will be more nourishing and supportive to find to use these, these new methods rather than the ones we’ve been conditioned to us, then great, we can start to learn and growing and change in terms of how we’re relating to those unmet needs.

Shannon M. 40:26
And to Christine, so of everything that Claire said, and I will say, and it’s especially when we’re given advice, things like this, even with Shayla glow with the physical, a lot of times we’re used to giving a prescription, like you said, right, this pill with this amazing, lovely if the visual, and what they’re saying is two completely different things, right. So this is what we’re saying it does, here are all the side effects. That’s how we’re used to it. And it’s not the side of you might get all the side effects, or one of them a few of them. But of course, they’re going to be different. But I think that a way to tailor it is The Five Love Languages. And maybe we’ll find out that there’s a better system for that too. Of course, we’re always doing SWAT and LSI, and upgrading our systems, right. But if somebody has, let’s say, for example, Social in their social needs, right, they have early childhood trauma, they were teased at from a community standpoint, because we talked about it from a therapist and a coach standpoint, right? How do you tell them? Or how do you guide them through? That’s how I would support them in that area. So socially? What is their love language? Do they like acts of kindness acts of service, you know, do they this friend need or this romantic partner want to be taken out on a date? Do they want me to do something to surprise them to, you know, support or celebrate this amazing strength that they have? Or is it words of affirmation, and they just need to be built up. And when I think about something that I think they would like to hear, let me tell them, you know, but specifically, feeding that person in a way that makes it count more for them is what I’ve worked on with my social circle that I work on intentionally supporting. And from my old work environment, I think we talked about this question is, how can I best support you, you know, so those who you aren’t close to? If you see that they struggle in this area? Well, what is it that you need, and then having them tell you, if they know of course, sometimes there’s work to be done. And that’s what we’re here for. But that’s the easy way to so you don’t try to support and then not in support the wrong way. And now you’re, you’re reestablishing maybe the trauma or coming up with new situations.

Claire Brummell 42:30
Right? When it’s interesting, you mentioned the five love languages, because we actually teach that there are seven. There’s, there’s the original five, and we call it the seven tiers of giving and receiving love, and there’s a T associated to the original five, remember that going through those, but the additional to that we work with our thoughts. Because sometimes it’s not so much about the thing, the act of service, the word is about knowing somebody well enough that the thought behind whatever the act is, is actually the thing that makes them feel loved. And then the seventh one is kind of an interesting one. We we describe it as taking in. And it’s basically some people feel loved when other people receive from them. So it’s like I feel loved, I feel more connected to you when you will receive from me. So there’s different there’s there’s different layers in that. But I agree and I think one of the things that one of these that we often teach clients to do when they’re going through the needs, and when we’re helping them to figure out the ways of meeting the need for themselves that will really work is that is that we ask them what is it that they would need from somebody else? And what is a way that they can give that to themselves. It’s not that we don’t want it from anybody else. Of course, having other people pour into us that’s part of community and that helps like as my I know, my business partner is watching right now she talks it as like the sprinkles on the Sunday. Like there’s still really good Sunday’s there’s you got your ice cream and your your brownie bits and your sauce and all that kind of thing. That’s us meeting our own needs. Those are things that we can do for ourselves, and somebody else doing it just becomes those sprinkles on top. We want to kind of create that situation. We’re not dependent on somebody else for our healing. But actually we’re just having elevating each other and supporting each other with what we’re already giving to ourselves.

Shannon M. 44:09
Yeah. And especially in a social environment. I think it’s so important. You know, when we talk about COVID We know that COVID I would say stretch everybody I try I try not to generalize or make assumptions we know that but everybody has been affected. So what happens when you are depending on somebody and now they gotta catch themselves and so they’re not here for you when you are out in the wind because we don’t have the tools to stabilize ourselves. So I love the work that you’re doing. Thank you for bringing us in everybody back together for the foundation in the needs that we need. And and also I would say expanding expanding on the five love languages because it is a thing. You know, the the great I had a step grandmother one time my dad’s been married a few times. And I remember she was so upset if we wouldn’t eat or when I do the scallop away. I about how expensive scallops were okay. Do you know what that is? That’s a scallop in the trash can. And I think that was one of her love languages, people being able to perceive the things that she was trying to do for us.

Claire Brummell 45:11
Right. Absolutely. And I think that’s one of the bees. That was one of the reasons that that one really I love that is because it creates this mutuality and community. It’s not just about how are people giving to us, it’s also about how we get there. How do we feel loved when we get to give to others? And looking at those, those kinds of those beautiful symbiotic relationships?

Christine Gautreaux 45:31
Well, and you know, last week, we were talking to Dr. Brown about purpose, and you know, and that goes right in what we were talking about, because, you know, I love connecting people. And that is one of my love languages is when I can connect somebody with somebody else. And it just and I see the spark of like, oh my gosh, they’re gonna go do this project together. Oh, they’re gonna be like, I don’t know. It lights me up from the inside. Yeah, y’all, this has been such a good conversation. Like, this has been really good. Um, Neely says, Hi. Hi, Nelia. Amelia. So glad you’re listening today. Yeah, I just think this work is just so valuable. So needed, Claire. And like, can you imagine if our kids were taught this from the very beginning? Like if they understood like, I mean, do y’all have a book coming out? I know, you have your podcast, you have a book coming out?

Claire Brummell 46:32
We have we’re working on the book, we’re working on the TED Talk and our intention, eventually. I mean, I’ve luckily Me and my big business partner with a big thing, because we like to go home. And so what the intention is, is that is that the universal needs, bodywork will end up becoming the core? And then there will be these different applications? Like how does it apply in business? In terms of customer experience, employee engagement? How does it apply in terms of relationships? How does it play in terms of parenting? How does it apply in terms of education? How does it apply in terms of addiction recovery? How does it apply in terms of self worth and self value? Like there’ll be all of these different applications of what it is that we do? Because that’s what we see with our clients. We were like, Oh, who specifically do you work with and what problems or might literally most of the time people will refer people to me, they’re like, I don’t know why I’m talking to you. And I’m like, Okay, tell me what’s going on in your life. And I’ll explain why you’re talking. going on for you right now. So the book is in the pipeline, the TED talk is in the pipeline we’re working

Christine Gautreaux 47:33
through on so tell people about your podcast, too.

Claire Brummell 47:38
So our podcast is a it’s a little edgy, in terms of in terms of the name so that it was created that the name came up, because during the pandemic actually was when I took my business partner Serena through a deep dive, not only is like the content of the top level, but but that that deep dive of working one on one with me where I can go, a lot of time when people go through the content, they get it on an intellectual level, or they get some pieces of it at a surface level. But often when I work with somebody individually, I can kind of go, oh, this is the need underneath. Actually, it’s this need that softens, I can often see kind of through and pinpoint things that are going on. So she did the deep dive with me. And consistently throughout that period of time, the amount of times I would say something, she’d go, Well, shit. It really wasn’t naming the podcast, I was like, I want something a little bit edgy, that’s got a bit of personality and kind of shows our humor and everything. And we were looking down ideas and all of a sudden she went well, shit. I’m like, Oh, my goodness that says well, we get like the business aspect relationships that I’ve said, we did an apology series, we got to sell first series. I think that’s currently what the podcast episodes are going on at the moment. So and we cover all these topics and we say to people, you tell us what the problems are, you’re having other challenges. We’ll do a podcast to answer it. So um, so yeah, that’s

Christine Gautreaux 48:59
our listeners are gonna love that. And you know, podcast listeners love good recommendations for other podcasts. So y’all go check it out and, and give Claire and her business partner some suggestions of things you want you want to hear about because it really is good. Right? So fun, y’all. It is about that time to start heading towards close. So thinking about this yummy conversation we’ve had today. I think if we had to hashtag something from this conversation, and that would be a wisdom in action. What would our hashtags be from today? What do you think Claire?

Claire Brummell 49:40
I’ve always got hashtag self first is always an important one for me because I think that it says exactly what it is. It’s not self to the detriment or ignorant ignorance of others. It is prioritizing yourself first and just be mindful that we’re doing in a way that doesn’t harm others. So I think so first hashtag self as we pretty much put hashtag self first and pretty much everything we put out there. So I think that’s that’s one of the Once that comes to me,

Christine Gautreaux 50:01
Oh, I love that. All right, what do you got? Shannon?

Shannon M. 50:04
My hashtag is hashtag no your needs. And hello, specifically having this conversation with my partner, my romantic partner, right? Thankfully, I have a few partners in all my different projects. And, and I love all of you guys. And actually, it’s relevant for everybody you know, and I told them, I don’t even know how to ask you for help yet. So firstly, I got to figure out what I need. And then I got to figure out how to articulate it, you know, and as business women, as business people, professional people in management or ownership, delegation is important, some things are going to be for you. And then something should absolutely be for other people. And I think that when women figure that out, it’s a beautiful thing. And we can start being healthy and get more rest. And everybody’s happier. It’s a beautiful, it’s a beautiful thing when it starts working out. So hashtag know your needs.

Christine Gautreaux 50:53
Right. And actually, I

Claire Brummell 50:55
just want to just add on that the end of that is that one of the things that Serena and I found incredible was we were best friends, before we started working in business, I remember initially going really or want to go into business with my best friend like that doesn’t normally work well. But through knowing our needs, through knowing how to understand, articulate, communicate, meet our own needs, and discuss it with each other business relationship has actually made a close friendship closer and our friendship has become closer because of our business relationship. So it’s, it’s enriched every single area, which I love.

Shannon M. 51:25
Round of applause to you and Serena, I know you need to do your wisdom and action. And we close out but clear. That’s, I love what you do. Because I feel like this is what I’ve been talking about, like my whole after college or even during college conversations that I’ve been having. But as an RA, we would do this thing called a roommate contract, right? You sit down, I’ve never met Claire, Claire, and I did not go to high school together. But we live together, right. And we were talking about visitation noise, all of these things. And people just like business would say best friends shouldn’t live together. And what I felt like I learned was this because you think you know each other, but you don’t really have those type of conversations. So knowing the needs, setting the expectation, and then moving and being able to have open open conversation after that, I think will squash a lot of stuff, you know,

Claire Brummell 52:13
being able to be uncomfortable and have knowing knowing how to navigate your needs in those uncomfortable conversations, and to create a solution that’s actually going to support everyone’s needs,

Christine Gautreaux 52:21
right and know how to breathe through that talking about that uncomfortableness, like how you can stay in your body and be present to know what your needs are. Right? Oh, Claire, okay, we’re gonna have to have you back. Because I think we need like a college version, I think we need like, there’s so many ways that you could talk about this, right? I just, oh, I mean, this is just delicious. Like, this is so good. My hashtag for wisdom and action would actually probably be hashtag steal point, which is one I use a lot from our book, because we talk about a lot of this with self care and self healing. And what we talked about in the book is The still point is the place that you stop. And you listen, I love that. And so I think about that I want I was gonna do your shape. And then you took you took the one I was gonna use. I had to come up with another, but it comes all together, right? All of that when you take that moment that still point to stop and listen. And then you know, your needs and you meet your needs. I just think it’s and then the self first you’re this is powerful,

Shannon M. 53:30
and not just to be unicorns and light clouds and all things and always. And not to say that it has to be on the negative side to be opposed to that. But what I’m trying to say is that it’s not just superficial, right? Like you said, clear a lot of people understand it intellectually, when I read so point is literally affecting the immune system. And the women are dying like this is this mess, how serious it is that we do not do this. We are getting sick having surgery, I’m able to show up for all the things that we love and spend our life on. And then when we finally take the time for ourselves, we have less than a second to see it. And then we’re gone. Because we haven’t been prioritizing ourselves. So that’s the urgency that I feel with it. That’s why we’re here on vacation, not on vacation 63 episodes a year out from this conversation with Claire, like, we still got to talk about it. Because every day, women and families are sick and they don’t have to be right we live and thriving and talking about vacation or whatever the things are that help us meet our needs with joy, you know, so I would love to see more of

Claire Brummell 54:37
a meeting I need it’s about honoring all that we all that we are as humans, the whole and the whole, as you say it’s not all the positive and light like we need to recognize the other things that are present, because they’re all part of our needs as well. And the

Christine Gautreaux 54:50
charm weeks I’m sorry, I’m cracking up y’all because Serena popped in her hashtag move over Maslow which started this whole conversation Thanks so much Claire, for, for reaching out to us and being engaged as one of our listeners and just and bring in your light and your intellectual host itself really your intellectual wisdom to our listeners and to the world. We just can’t wait to see what you do out there and, and changing this whole the whole way that we meet our needs. Like that’s That’s powerful stuff.

Claire Brummell 55:30
Yeah and I love you ladies are doing I just think it’s so important the conversations that you’re having are so important and and I look forward to coming back and having another one some other time. And Licious but I feel like we’ve only just scratched the surface.

Christine Gautreaux 55:46
Absolutely. And Claire, like this is just, this is a little bit of a secret. But we’ll tell you and our listeners. So coming in October is a women connected in wisdom conference. So we need to talk about you come in and doing a workshop on Universal needs. So it’s yeah, so that’s in the works. More soon, listeners. And thank you so much, Claire, for being here today and sharing your wisdom with us. We’re delighted to be connected with you. I love it. Well, that was some powerful conversation. I know we’re way longer than we usually go. So as we go to Wrap, what was something that stood out for you that you were like, oh, I want to talk more about that.

Shannon M. 56:35
Something I wanted to talk more about, or that I could talk more about is when we talked about stripping of the culture on the community, right reminded me of college, I know, when I take information from certain sources, you have to make it your own, you know, so it makes sense that if you went to this place, and you learned it, you kind of changed it because you didn’t want to take it exactly. But sometimes the stuff that you take out is very relevant. And it’s important, you know, especially

Christine Gautreaux 57:03
in white dominant culture when it’s a white male taken from indigenous folks, and, and making tons of profit off of it for years, like oof, that’s a problem. Yeah. So yes to talking more about that.

Shannon M. 57:17
And what you said, definitely something that I think about, you know, so how can we add it back in to be healthier is what I was thinking about something else that stood out to me, think meeting our ways, meeting our needs in a way that fulfills us, right? She talked about the red and the green, the spectrum. I think that’s really important. We saw what happens when you know, the need was and you meet it in an unhealthy way. Now we’re creating another need or possible more traumas. And so the list can go on again, we’ll try one. But those Oh, and I will say the third thing is the the levels of trauma, right? Severe. Is it chronic? And then is it chronic and severe? What does that look like? Genuinely address it in a holistic way?

Christine Gautreaux 58:04
Right? Oh, man, I mean, just such good stuff. And I want to lift up something you said right at the very end, because it’s I think one of the most powerful phrases we can ask somebody that, that we’re supporting in community, as you said, How can I best support you? And I love that phrase, it’s one of the ones I use, and I use it in my daily life. And I just think we don’t know other people like we can’t assume what somebody else needs or by the way they look or even if we’ve known him for years because people change and so I think asking that question and having people check in with themselves and

Shannon M. 58:45
yeah, oh,

Christine Gautreaux 58:46
we can keep talking about this forever. But I know we have to start to wrap anything we no need to know over happening over at Shayla glow. Oh, so

Shannon M. 58:55
shout out to my ladies have a marketing team working on everything right now. So love when we connected in wisdom, nothing new. Actually, maybe outside of the waiting list. So if you go to the website right now we are sold out of everything. Again, we are just rebranding, going back to glass containers for everyone. But if there is a product that you know you want I know there’s messages on Instagram I need to get back to you’re trying to give gifts Mother’s Day is coming up right father’s day after that graduation or whatever you’re thinking about. You can get on the waiting list. They’re already buying the kids they’re already getting the shea butter, so if you do not want to be on a second waiting list email on Instagram, and I will get exactly what you need and your information so you can be reached out to Boomer

Christine Gautreaux 59:39
restocked and so you can glow from head to toe

Shannon M. 59:42
From head to toe baby because again, we got to work on the foundation, the whole tree has to be taken care of like so. Yes. And it’s not just about your face. It’s about your whole body. And that’s what we talk about not just what we see but genuinely being well taken care of and wise So at the end of it was there anything else you wanted to add

Christine Gautreaux 1:00:03
nope okay good for today

Shannon M. 1:00:05
perfect we will see you ladies next week Live at Five in the meantime be well be wise we hope to see you soon see you

Christine Gautreaux 1:00:14
next week