Show notes –
Join Shannon & Christine as they talk with special guest Wende Ballew about Intellectual Wellness.
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Show Transcript –
NOTE: While it’s not perfect, we offer this transcription by Otter.ai for those who are hearing impaired or who don’t find listening to a podcast enjoyable or possible.
Shannon M. 0:08
Let’s do this. Okay, ladies, welcome to our podcast. I am Shannon Mitchell, a black female, millennial entrepreneur, the founder of shallow glow, a handmade shea butter company. I am a champion for your self care, business care and intentional wellness.
Christine Gautreaux 0:25
And I am Christine Gautreaux, a white social justice advocate, an international speaker, coach and published author who helps you upgrade yourself in community care.
Shannon M. 0:35
Yes. And together, we are women connected in wisdom, a podcast grounded in the eight dimensions of wellness. Welcome, welcome to our show.
Christine Gautreaux 0:43
And we love to get together every week to have intentional conversations about how to be wise and business relationships and wellness. How do we do all this and keep our sanity as part of- (begins laughing)
Shannon M. 0:56
these gotta stay?
Christine Gautreaux 0:59
Well, today we’re talking about intellectual wellness, which I always love. It is one I have to be honest, it is one of those when we’re going through the eight. Like when we’re listing off the eight wellness, sometimes it’s one that I forget. And I’m like, Oh, wait, wait, wait, this is important. Right? And I know what’s one of your favorite, my friends who you and I are both avid readers. And so I know it’s
Shannon M. 1:25
I mean, if and I talk about this all the time, if I were to take away all the knowledge that I know from books, where would I be, you know, especially I just told everybody, right? I’m a black millennial business owner, how did that happen? You know, I definitely had to read a few books and learn a few things and have conversations. So I love it because it’s added so much to my life. Absolutely.
Christine Gautreaux 1:50
It’s also something I don’t take for granted, which we’re gonna share with our listeners in a few minutes, the actual definition that we work off of, you know, oftentimes when I think about intellectual illness, I think about school, and it can be so much more. But you know, in my lineage I’ve been I’ve been researching more on ancestry.com and all that. You know, I come from folks that come from farmers and sharecroppers, and I come from a lot of folks who have a second grade education, because they had to come home to work on the farm. And so, I always knew that from my grandparents, because they came home from the Great Depression to work on the farm, from school, but as I look back on multiple generations, it’s like, whoa, like, oh, in the census, she had a second grade education. She had a fourth grade education, she added, it’s, and it was also why education was so important to my grandparents, like for their children and their children’s children. Now, that being said, My papa, this is my paternal grandfather was the smartest man I ever knew one of the kindest, and one of the smartest, he built a house from the ground up. Did all the electrical, you know, this was back before permits, right? We always laugh because he built a beautiful log cabin for my grandmother, but all the electric was upside down. Instead of turning it on, you turned it down to turn it on, but it works. I believe he had a third grade education. I so. So what’s the official definition of intellectual wellness? What are we working on today?
Shannon M. 3:31
Yeah, so intellectual wellness refers to active participation in Scholastic, cultural and community activities. It is important to gain and maintain intellectual wellness because it expands knowledge and skills in order to live a stimulating successful life. In order to improve intellectual wellness. It is important to value creativity, curiosity, and lifelong learning. And this definition is specifically from the University of Illinois.
Christine Gautreaux 4:00
And lifelong learning, right?
Shannon M. 4:02
Yes.
Christine Gautreaux 4:03
We’ll ask our guests when they come up in a minute, but what are you currently reading? Because I know you always have a book that you’re reading.
Shannon M. 4:10
Yes, I’m reading so I will say two things I’m reading still. What is it, Laura, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, okay, I know effective people finish things. So my goal for November, my book goal is to finish this book since I’ve been reading it since last year, I started the B 2.0 That you gave me but I told you, I don’t want to dig too deep into that book until I finish. So technically, those are the two that I’m reading. And I’m also listening to an audio book when I’m in the car. That’s titled, Lies My Teacher Told Me
Christine Gautreaux 4:43
yes, big stuff.
Shannon M. 4:45
Yes. What about you? What are you reading right now?
Christine Gautreaux 4:47
I was looking because you know how I laughed because I read on my phone. I listened to Audible I was like, which– so I always have a series of fiction going that’s how I escaped Like I always have a series of just 15 minutes where I fall asleep. I preorder Brene brands Atlas of the heart. One of the ones that pops up first on my book is emergent strategy. But I popped back in and out of that book, I wouldn’t say I’m reading it, you know, straight out. But just listen to the essentialist book, we talked about that recently, I think we, I would have to pull up audible to tell you the latest one, I’ve been doing a lot of podcasts lately. So there is a new podcast about indigenous wisdom that I’ve been listening to that I’ll put in the show notes. Um, because I’ve been taking a class with the southern movement assembly, and about decolonization. And so they recommended this podcast. And so it’s new. It’s, you know, I’m listening versus reading with a, you know, but hey, as podcast host, I’m like, what? We can support that?
Shannon M. 6:00
Absolutely. When I find out how many books CEOs read every year, I said, You know what, let me start listening to audio books. Because sometimes reading the physical pages not gonna get fit into the schedule.
Christine Gautreaux 6:12
I don’t know if this statistic is still true or not. And our guests won’t be able to tell us but I somewhere I read somewhere years ago that if you read 15 minutes a day, on your subject, you would be an expert. It was either within a year or two years and have read more than most people who work in that field. And so I thought, oh, that’s fascinating, right? Just 15 minutes a day. Like it doesn’t have to be hours. And now that we have podcasts now that we have audible books now that we have different ways to do it. I mean, yeah. All right. Well, I think we should bring up our guest. We have up say something else. I will say it after we’re all at the table. All right, awesome. Well, y’all know I love introducing guests, and I especially love introducing guests who I consider personal friends also. And today’s guest is one of those. So Gwendolyn windy Balu is the artistic and administrative leader of reforming arts. They founded reforming arts in 2010. As an arts and humanities education program for people incarcerated in women’s prisons in Georgia. This name is gonna sound familiar to y’all because I’ve shouted out reforming arts a lot on this show. Wendy has taught at Kennesaw State University and continues to teach indirect performing arts classes inside and outside of women’s prisons facilities in Georgia, and they facilitate Performing Arts Theater reentry project. Wendy is a co founder of the Georgia coalition of higher education in prison and the southern higher education and prison collective. Wendy has a bachelor’s degree in theater, an MBA a master’s in American Studies, a graduate certificate in women’s studies, and is a PhD candidate in qualitative research and evaluation methodologies at the University of Georgia. perfect candidate for talking about intellectual well is with us today. In 2018, windy was named a woman making a mark by Atlanta magazine and a woman to watch by Weight Watchers magazine in 2019. The arts exchange awarded Wende and reforming arts with an Elon Dooley Arts and Social Justice Champion award. I am so excited to invite to our podcast today my friend, Wende Ballew. Hello, hello.
Wende Ballew 8:38
Hey y’all!
Christine Gautreaux 8:40
How are you today?
Wende Ballew 8:41
Um, I’m pretty good. I got a headache. But I’m getting used to that.
Shannon M. 8:51
How much water have you had? Every time somebody says something? I said? That’s my first question.
Wende Ballew 8:56
Good bit. I’m just sensitive to lying. And so I’ve, you know, been on the screen a lot today.
Christine Gautreaux 9:03
Well, the last two years is hard for that. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, Wende Ballew. Thank you for coming on and talking to us about intellectual wisdom and wellness today. I specifically wanted you to come on because first of all, I adore you and I adore performing arts and the work that we’re doing in the world. But talk to us about your dissertation and what you’re currently working on in the juiciness of what you are creating in the world right now.
Wende Ballew 9:36
Okay.
Well, it’s been a long journey. I started working towards the desert of the writing curriculum and pedagogy. And I started that as part of my women’s or my American Studies program at Kennesaw 10 years ago, 12 years ago, something long time ago. And then I actually when I started it, you UGA in PhD program, I was in the Lifelong Learning Program and that kind of switched to workforce learning, which I was like I could do, I consider that to be kind of like organizational behavior, which I could have gotten a PhD from school business and gotten paid more. I, I kind of switched programs, the American Studies, it’s funny because the American Studies program was brand new when I, I was the first cohort. And the same thing happened at UGA, they announced this new Ph. D program, I was in the first cohort, but I’ve taken so long that I was not the first graduate from that program. But um, so what we’re working on is kind of looking at a critical pedagogy, which was specifically as our CO Pedagogy of the Oppressed really by Paulo Freire A. And he wrote that 19th came out in United States, I think, in 1970. And then, as I still while followed that up with Theater of the Oppressed, and he did a lot of designs, a lot of well didn’t design like, everybody still theater exercises from everybody else, right, you just recycle them. But he wrote them in a in a way to really talk about doing theater, not for the spectators for the average people in Brazil, to talk to to do consciousness raising with them, and to prepare them for action. And he says that theater is not revolution revolution, but it is rehearsal for a revolution. And so I’ve taken those mostly and read them through or what I call diffract them through. I’m Karen barotz, reading of quantum entanglement, and she’s a science theorists and a feminist. And also, she, she really looked at diffracting Judith Butler’s concept of gender performativity. And then she read that as queer performativity, and talks about the queerness of performativity. So performativity is very central to a lot of my argument, and, you know, works really well when you’re using theatre as your main research method, which I do was called, it’s called theatre action research. And that was written by I learned about it from James B. Thompson, from the UK. And he’s a theatre practitioner, I think, in Manchester. So we’ve just been doing all kinds of like, Shut writing shows I’ve been observing for over a decade. And then we’re really getting close to this pedagogy, which we’re calling right now. Creative, interactive pedagogy slash research, slash theater, doesn’t really feel like I do it all at the same time. And it’s all entangled together.
Christine Gautreaux 13:23
So Wende, for a lay person who’s listening, who might be saying, What the heck is pedagogy? Right, you break it down for our listeners,
Wende Ballew 13:33
it’s the study and know of teaching. How do we teach? How do we know what and then you know, I also go into a lot of epistemology is like how do we know what we know? And then ontology, which is, you know, the practice of being, you know, and so I really feel like creative interactive pedagogy is not just a it’s all of those things at the same time.
Christine Gautreaux 14:07
So, give us an example. I know because I’ve I’ve played in some of these classes with you as a volunteer for performing arts, but what are some of the things you do with folks who are reentering society or who are currently incarcerated in Georgia?
Wende Ballew 14:22
Well, let me say, you know, again, the goal of like a lot of pi theater that you’re taking into the community is again to to our language around it has typically been about you know, getting people in their bodies or getting people comfortable getting to know ourselves getting to know each other getting you know, and becoming more observant and then consciousness raising, you know, and then taking action. Right. Sometimes the taking action part gets left out, but um, and you know, taking theater from that Something designed to control people. And to something that live helps people be liberated. One of the things that performing arts does is we believe in narrative control. So we a lot of programs that do this type of theater, they, they say no pen to paper, right? They, it’s all improv. And even to the point of when the show the nine of the, if you have an audience, it’s still just improv. Well, we did that for several years. And then we stopped doing it. And we started inviting creative writers. And we started teaching, putting comp one and two in our programs and poetry in our program. And that’s it so that we give people the tools to tell their own stories. Right, we help them become better writers, better, better storytellers, in order to tell their own stories, not just within our class, but when they are released, and they have to fill out a job application and they have to go to a job interview, and they get that the this terrible questions? Oh, I see there’s a gap. Or I see, you know, you know, what happened? And so they can, because, you know, people that have been incarcerated. And a lot of people, well, you know, what happened was, and I’m like, Okay, so that’s the way you start a lie. Yeah. And so how do we, how do we get people to say things and so that other people will have confidence in our response, and not be suspicious of our response. So the four tenets of our pedagogy, our interaction, and that, again, is getting know ourselves getting comfortable in our bodies, we’ve spent a lot of time and on exercises that I don’t quite know how to teach virtually, about the trust exercises, you know, and that is getting most of that is getting people to close their eyes and trust somebody else in the room. And which is very difficult. It’s very difficult for me, I’m model it, I do an exercise where we have to run across the room with our eyes closed, and the people will will stop us and keep us from being harmed. And I always start with that. Because it’s scares me so bad, that I inevitably, I keep going, but I inevitably slow down and start cussing in the middle. And, of course, I think that’s hilarious. But it also displays that, that I’ve been through trauma, truth two, I don’t trust either, but I’m doing this anyway. Right? I’m just, I’m leaning into it and doing something that scares the hell out of me. And, you know, mostly with, I might know, one or two of the people in the room, but mostly people that I don’t know, right? So then we go to, let me pull it up my cheat sheet, say, say it right. And then we go to post human play. And
I actually developed this through observing Christine, in her in her work at Mercy care, and watch just how certain exercises get people into this mode of play. And, and when I think of a mode of play, it’s a way of being like, and that we just really understanding, we talked a little bit about this before about how difficult how different it is teaching in a prison, how people you know, are such in their scarcity modes and things like that. So you have to get them into this mode of play, where they are able to separate themselves from all of the stresses that’s going on around them so that they’re able to learn. And I really believe that everybody, you know, that we are more able to enter into discussions and conversations with a sense of understanding, if we first go into a mode of play.
Christine Gautreaux 19:44
Can I add something in here when doing so you know, as a volunteer for reforming arts? I’ve done interplay in the women’s prison system in Georgia. And every time you tell, start talking about that Think about this one person who we were doing an exercise in getting into that mode of play. And when we took a moment afterwards to notice, and we were in medium to maximum security prison, they were a person with a life sentence. Like one of the most restrictive environments you can be in, and we got into a mode of play. And when they noticed what they were feeling in their body, they were feeling freedom. Yeah. And when I think about the power of that, like, it makes me want to cry, cuz it’s like, this is powerful work.
Wende Ballew 20:38
Yeah, we’re talking,
Christine Gautreaux 20:40
play. I mean, it’s intellectual, but it’s play, I’m sorry to interrupt you, I just, I don’t want
Wende Ballew 20:46
to miss that connection, right? When we have this, that’s the thing that the Cognito did to us all that you know, and then we just keep regurgitating these knowledges of these old Whiteman, Roman and Greek men. And that believed that it was okay for some humans to own other humans, like whatever else they wrote, they believed that, and we keep regurgitating it, and repackaging it, and calling it the dialectic or calling it like the what is core. But anyway, it we’ve got to get away from that. And the core of our pedagogy is about fostering an ethic of care. And, you know, I look at that ethic of care as not as a binary against just, you know, with justice. But as it needs to be our central ethic of caring for each other. Now, that’s going to be displayed in I’m not a nurturing person, you know, don’t call me if you’ve got the flu.
Christine Gautreaux 21:55
I’m calling you and I want you to make me some homemade soup from Saudi your garden, just saying?
Wende Ballew 22:04
Well, that’s my type of nurturing, right, I’ll make you that I’ll pick the vegetables, cook it, and I’ll bring it to you, but don’t ask me to bring it to you, you know, like, then you have to get out of bed and come get it and put it in your bow. But, you know, I am a very caring person and trying to, to talk about how we care about each other, or, you know, and quite frankly, the last few years have just broken my heart, as Christine well knows. I mean, I’m, I’m heartbroken over people’s response and their selfishness. And I know a lot of it is founded in fear. But it, it’s broken my heart, I mean, and so then let’s transition, let’s go on to the fourth Tenet, which is the fraction that you in other people’s thing that would be called analysis. And one of the things and one of the critiques I’ve had is that with theater is so embodied, you know, you’re using your body you’re using, you’re bringing in a little bit, you know, they talk a little bit about spirit. But it’s really, you know, talking about our body knowledge, but then we’ll do exercises, and for the longest time, I would follow that up with or your do a whole play. And then, you know, when it’s about the top back, and people, you know, talking about what they saw and whatever. But again, the interplay, and Christine did me a huge favor, by just coming in one day and saying what you’ve noticed, and instead of taking that exercise that we’ve just done, and talking intellectually about what we thought, or that it was about communication, or about this, or about everything, whatever, then we started talking about what we noticed in our bodies first.
And it is a simple thing. But it is a profound shift. It is a profound shift, and how we think, and how we learn, and how we teach.
Christine Gautreaux 24:17
And I would add on to that, especially with folks who’ve been in trauma, because you know, they don’t want to be in their bodies. I mean, understandably so because a lot of times it’s painful, and it’s scary. And it’s hard. You know, it’s it’s a survival mechanism to zip out of your body or not paying attention to what’s going on in your body. So yeah, yes, I want to affirm that. Shannon, you look like you have a question or comment?
Shannon M. 24:42
Yeah, I would say it depends on what type of trauma it is, you know, especially me being a young woman who does have a bachelor’s degree who had the opportunity to do that. I’m thinking about what you’re talking about Wendy and learning and being mobile physically in the difference of me Being in the front of my classroom taking notes that takes my hand, some neck movements in my brain, you know. So as a woman, especially getting older and thinking about femininity, and what I want it to look like, to me, it’s been interesting to think about my body a little bit more, and not just my brain. Because everything’s been either I’m working and I’m physically walking around the building, or using my brain and think about something and learning a new skill or whatever that looks like, whether it’s me reading a book, or listening to a book. Those are usually the variations that I think about, I don’t think about if I have to dance today, or if I’ve played and what that looks like, and the combining of the two. That’s what I love about interplay and everything that that you guys talk about.
Wende Ballew 25:46
Right? And so, you know, I’m here to, like, people assume I do this, and all of this is intuitive to me. Right, right. Christine’s already laughing. I hate it all. Like I, like I resist, I live in my head. I am. I’m my brain is big, and it likes to learn, and it’s where I feel comfortable. And yet I, I majored in theater, as a stage manager, and technical director, right, like, um, you know, and so, all of this has been uncomfortable for me from the very beginning. But it, but I just the evidence, like Brene, brown, says, you know, she talks a lot about how all this vulnerability and stuff makes her so uncomfortable, it makes me so incredibly uncomfortable. And that is a, that’s a big aspect of our classes is that encouraging people to become vulnerable, so that they can build resilience makes me so uncomfortable, but it’s essential in healing. And that is our kind of pivot right now with performing arts, our last tenant is creative becoming, and that I say that instead of like, revolution, or action or, or transformation, because I don’t, there’s no, he, I’ve never seen a human go through an actual metaphor morphus, where they go from a worm to a caterpillar. So I, and they’re in transformation kind of alludes to a utopia. And there is no utopia. Each time we reveal, we make some progress, that we’re just we’re just shine light on new problems that we weren’t able to see before. But if we’re, you know, come together in this creative becoming of trying to, to create something new together, then then that’s a change. And that’s a shift. And it can’t define it forever, but it won’t be the same for
Shannon M. 27:57
everybody.
Wende Ballew 28:02
And then also say that we’re, as I’ve learned more about trauma. We just want to be more so much more conscious and focused on helping people using this pedagogy to help people heal from trauma.
Christine Gautreaux 28:19
Alright, right. I love that windy. Thank you for that work. I mean, I’ve witnessed it. I’ve witnessed in an action if witnessed the changes, it’s not always easy. I mean, you saying that about? It’s uncomfortable? Or it’s like it’s, yeah, I mean, and to your point about, sometimes it takes uncomfortability to build that resilience, if everything feels good, if I mean, we talked about this when we talked about anti racist work, and we’ve talked about social justice, if it all feels good, you’re probably not doing it the right way. This is hard work. This is this is it’s meaningful, and it’s important, but it’s not always easy. And, and, and holding both at the same time. We can do it with clay, we can do it with dancing, we can do it with joy, we can do it with you know, with laughter even on big scary subjects, you know,
Shannon M. 29:16
and and I would say it’s not a I think that before I was here had turned paradigm shifts. Right. I would think that that sounds like you were making it unrealistically optimistic or I feel like some people think that’s the fluff in it but no, it is absolutely necessary to laugh you know because all this other stuff is going to happen if you don’t laugh as well as get upset at the things that you should get upset at then there isn’t the the equal sides or maybe you know both sides of the coin. I won’t call him equal however you would think about it, but you guys understand what I’m saying. Like you have to laugh. I think that playing for me it reminds me of keeping that childlike spirit Write some of that is serious, absolutely, I should pay my sales tax for my business before the end of the month, we know that should be taken care of, you know, but I can also go roll down a hill with some grass on it and relax a little bit because it’s a lot. And sometimes we don’t have to hold the weight of it, we can just live our lives and enjoy that moment. And then when it’s time to work, and you have that time block in your schedule, now it’s time to give the effort, you know where it should go. But absolutely, that’s why I love learning more about the play, because I usually didn’t think about it. I’m thinking about my grades and everything else that went into that formula for me when I was in school.
Christine Gautreaux 30:40
When do we were talking before the show about a lesson that you had learned in regard to dance in it in? Do you want to share about that?
Wende Ballew 30:52
Yes. What did what do we say? Yes. So, you know, one of the things I was saying is like, you know, I tend to well, for many years, our primary our performing arts was placed based and we taught in women’s prisons, and also had a reentry program, we still have the reentry program, and we’re still able to teach in the prisons. But that’s a very stressful and and usually I would get when I arrived at a prison, I’d get there about 730 and leave about 4pm. And it’s very stressful. I’m getting it. It’s It’s It’s dehumanizing even for the volunteers to go into a prison. And so I would, again, I’m running a not for profit, I have too many dogs. I’m been in some type of graduate program, most of my adult life. And so I’m like, Well, this is a good time for me to listen to an article or something like that. So I would just be in my head the whole time? Or are you thinking about, you know, the staff person that I really, really don’t like, or that has really caused me a lot of trauma. And then I went and stressed, you know, start the day stressed, I go into a stressful situation are already tense, right? And so what I was saying was that, in the future, what I’m going to do is have a playlist of things that are you know, really bring me joy, for at least that last 30 minutes before I enter such a tense situation. I really feel like I’ve made a lot of mistakes around that before. But I hope I am able to change my practice because you know, as y’all know, just because you know better doesn’t necessarily mean you do better.
Christine Gautreaux 32:54
Right? That’s such a good point. So Wendy, what would be one song that would be on that playlist? I want us to all go around and say a song that would be on our playlist that would bring us joy. Or that we’d want to what do you think?
Wende Ballew 33:11
I think one of my I don’t know if I’ve told you this Christine. One of my favorite songs right now and over the summer just was campaign and by myself and I just played hallelujah by Brandi Carlile over and over again. And I’m a mimic my taco back thing I mimic, right. And so I listened to that. And I pulled up the lyrics, and I mimicked her hmm. And she sings that with such a, like, in again, not necessarily joy, but it just brought out all those emotions that needed to come out. And so I now when I’m like no, really I need to focus and I need to get this out. I just play that song. And I sing it with her. I mean, and I’m really belted out with her and I that puts me in that.
Christine Gautreaux 34:02
I love that Shannon, what about you? What’s one song that would be on that playlist?
Shannon M. 34:07
I would say don’t worry about a thing by Stevie Wonder. Because you know, I speak Spanish not fluently yet. But at the beginning of the song. We’re like, Wait, he really just made something up. But it’s Stevie Wonder. So he put it in a song. He’s like, Hey, shouldn’t you understand any of that? And she’s like, knowing that she don’t understand anything he just said and I think it’s just playful. They’re dancing, you know? And then I get it’s like me getting my tempo, especially since I used to be in band. But it’s funny. Pharaoh said something about his machine and doing her scales. And I said you know what? It’s actually really good point. So I do have a playlist that like gets me in tune with positivity. There’s hope is going to be okay. Don’t worry about anything. We can have fun and get stuff done to what’s your song.
Christine Gautreaux 34:55
I love this show because I use it with myself and I use it with my private clients and my coaching clients is like, music can shift us like it could be a 30 minute playlist. It could be one song you can put on. Oh so many but you know, one of my faves is resilient by rising Appalachia like it is. If I need like a, you got this song, I’ll put that on. Karen Drucker’s one of my favorites who I just felt out with and I used to shift my energy with talking about Don’t worry about a thing. I don’t know if we’ve talked about this on air before, but I’m a little bit addicted to watching the voice. I don’t. So I know when he’s like what? Development This is a new development from the pandemic. And I’m not a reality TV girl, unless it comes to things that Pete watching people make their dreams come true. Like, yes, I love witnessing that. Well, they were singing I can’t remember who was singing it the other night. There’s Stevie Wonder’s Don’t worry about a thing. But I also wanted to tell windy, because Wendy’s on this part of town. One of the contestants is from East Point, Georgia. And he’s like one of the top 11. And I’m just like, Atlanta represented. So yes to music, and yes to creating our playlists, and I would love any of our listeners out there to to give us a shout out and put it in the comments or put it on our social media, like what’s on your playlist? What is your go to, for shifting your energy and bringing joy? I love that. Right? Yeah, I think it’s important. Yeah.
Wende Ballew 36:39
Who wants on, you know, finding out what’s on other people’s playlist? Because, you know, like I say, on that same trip, it was I have created a playlist called Mountain healing. And I put a lot of Brandi Carlile on it and things like that. But I also chant, you know, Christine knows this, because I’ve told her that I was like, Okay, I mean, let me let me search for Christine music now. Because she’s positivity and stuff. And I hate that, but I kind of need to hear it right.
Shannon M. 37:09
That’s why we’re connected. Yeah. You wouldn’t normally do to get out of it.
Christine Gautreaux 37:17
Well, the other thing, one of my favorite tricks is the free app. Shazam, that if you don’t have it on your phone, I highly recommend it. It’s a free app that you can just press your button, say Shazam. And it will tell you the song that’s playing. Because I can’t tell you how many times like I’ve been going through a drive thru, or you’re hearing music or even somebody playing music in the car next to me, right, and they’re playing it loud. I’m like, Well, I like that. And but I don’t know what it is. So if I hit Shazam, it will capture the music for me. And then I can put it into my playlist. So as a leader of interplay, and somebody that teaches a lot of classes, it’s an incredible tool. But I recommend it to everybody, because then you just build and then I have certain platelets designated for you know, I found that out in the world. But now, Wendy, I know that the pandemic has been devastating on the women in prison in Georgia, and really all across the nation. Is there anything that our listeners can do, like, as we talked last week about calling our legislatures we, you know, we we promote action items around here. So is there anything that we can do in support of women who are currently incarcerated?
Wende Ballew 38:37
Yeah, we’re, we’re so disconnected right now, you know, we’re keeping in touch with the department of corrections, but we’re not but since we’re not, since we’re still considered volunteers, we can’t have interaction with, you know, our former or our students. And so I don’t even know what like the Yes, constantly called legislators, the governor’s office, things like that to encourage, you know, testing because there as far as I know, they’re still not doing regular testing. You know, the governor refuses to mandate the vaccine. And it you know, yes, people most people there have committed crimes, you know, they’re there. They’re serving their Senate’s um, but just the, as we see, you know, like the masking, not masking, you know, like all of these things, put people like people are such enraged about it right now. And any of those things, anything that you are seeing as an increased anger or as an increased whatever in society, everything that is in society is in prison. but it is hyper, like, you know, like, so whatever tensions you’re seeing amongst your family or whatever it is 100% guaranteed that it is also happening in a prison. And it is 1000 times worse.
Christine Gautreaux 40:20
Whoo. I think about that, when you say that when, you know, we’re getting ready for holiday celebrations in the next couple of weeks. And I know there’s a lot of conversation around, you know, having to be with family or choosing to be with family or not. And you saying that what, what just popped into my head was imagine if we were all locked in with our families with no choice for weeks, like I think about that. I don’t know why that just popped up in my head, you know, and but I’m like, Whoa, yeah, that would be magnified. That would be we were talking about family gatherings coming up Shannon and, and just big energy right now. To be around all this?
Wende Ballew 41:10
Well, I want to say to like it, one of the things about knowledge and you know, this whole thing for me, this journey is a bit about understanding, gaining more understanding, and realizing, mostly trying to understand my parents more, which are, they are unusual people. And my, one of the things that I really regretted, during this whole thing was so my father’s in prison. He’s been in prison for 35 years. He’s at Huntsville State Penitentiary in Huntsville, Texas. And, at one point, last year, he that prison, you know, Houston’s just outside of Houston, you know, in Huntsville, they had all these COVID cases, you know, like work, they are testing in the facility where he is. But they also had like, two weeks of no electricity or water. And I’m sure there were people calling out, you know, you know, how’s this? How’s my loved one? How is my loved one, and they were being told something that I know is absolutely not true. I, in those two weeks, I regretted all of the understanding that I have about how the criminal justice system really works. It, it, it was very difficult for me to know he was living through that. And that there was no way I was going to get the truth of what was actually going on.
Christine Gautreaux 42:45
Well, and when we talk about trauma, and we talked about basic needs, and two weeks without water, or lights in a lockdown situation and who Yeah. It’s in Huntsville has some of the worst reputation in the nation for their carceral control. You know, that’s the state I’m from, and actually have relatives working in that prison. It is just a, like, small world, right? It is. So much.
Wende Ballew 43:22
So we just had to keep taking our deep breaths. And again, you know, like, just make sure you Well, I don’t regret all of them learn, but you know, like, what, are we spending our time on regurgitating? Or are we, you know, trying to, you know, find new ways or create new ways of living together and understanding? I don’t, I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t think we’ve created it yet. But
Christine Gautreaux 43:54
when I think even having the intention to learn, right, if you haven’t been exposed to the criminal justice system, believe the, you know, a lot of the lies that are out there about it’s only horrible people that are put in jail, you know, like, educate yourself about yes, there are a lot of people that have committed crimes and why and where did that come from? And, you know, where their basic needs not met, like there’s so it’s such a complex system, that that for me, there’s more understanding and not like learning about it.
Wende Ballew 44:33
Well, this kind of ties into something we were saying before, was that, you know, again, we’re reforming Arts is pivoting towards you know, helping people recover from trauma and I’m actually in January, I’m enrolled to start in a certificate program for trauma healers, and and I’ve worked through a lot of my own complex PTSD because of my childhood and because of some of that things that that happened to me as a volunteer in prisons. But um, you know, I was saying that what one of the things that are most profound learning for me over the last few years was, many years ago, I sat through a psychologist talking about ending mass incarceration conference in Mississippi. And he was talking about criminal behavior, and how people with criminal mindsets respond to altercations, and things like that. And then, more recently, I was listening to these books on trauma, I think I think it was serene Jones, who is a president of Union Theological Seminary, and her book, grace and trauma was talking about, you know, detailing how a person reacts, and when they’re in a cycle of trauma. And it was the exact same thing y’all. Like, you know, like, intellectually or up here somewhere. I’ve known that all these people have been traumatized that they’re all in trauma that, but it is, it is, and it’s intentional, like people are intentionally allowing some people to live in such risky and precarious situations that they inevitably become traumatized. And then they’re easier to control.
Christine Gautreaux 46:31
Whew, we could have a whole nother show about that. And we should have you back Wendy after next year going through this program. And Shannon, did you have any comments or questions before we wrap the section?
Shannon M. 46:47
No, no, no, I think about well, I guess I do have a comment a reminds me of this paper I wrote when I was in college, the disproportion disproportionate incarceration of black men, you know, and it was so interesting. I was watching something the other day, and this gentleman was talking about how he got brought into the cell. And it was like, the biggest bird cage he had ever seen. And I had never thought about it like that. But I’m thinking about all these men and their families. And the women definitely, of course, were women connected with them. So we got to talk about the women that are incarcerated, too. And not to say that I’m not for accountability. And this happens, and this happens next, you know, we have to have consequences. That’s understandable. But like you said, Wendy, the dehumanizing part. Like you said, Christina, how do we get there, the things that are set up, we have to deal with the root, or no matter what the programs are, that we have or what we say what we do, we are still part of the system that’s perpetuating the end result that we’re saying we don’t want. So that’s why I love your program so much, Wendy. I remember I was on the call, I think was the anniversary we were celebrating everything that you you guys are doing at reforming arts. And I’m just thankful because I don’t know if I have the emotional space for decades to go into the prison system and help women I’m so thankful that there’s a program like reforming arts and everything else that you’re doing to help because it’s necessary
Christine Gautreaux 48:17
Yeah, that was the 10 year anniversary program.
Shannon M. 48:21
Yeah, that’s awesome.
Christine Gautreaux 48:25
Shannon will you tell our listeners in windy what wisdom inaction is about and we will
Shannon M. 48:30
Yes. Absolutely. So like like you said, we love to have action steps so we talked about intellectual wisdom led to a lot of different things. When the what is your one thing this week that you’re going to do to be intentional about your intellectual wisdom
Wende Ballew 48:51
I’m reading a book called Radical belonging by Linda Bacon, about body acceptance and they’re now their perspective from being gender non conforming.
Shannon M. 49:08
So is it to finish the book or is it to
Wende Ballew 49:11
Yeah, it’s the finish that book and to just really keep thinking through that because it’s been such a gift to me to like hear similar? I you you downplay, you know, when you’re trans but you’re not in either binary you you downplay that difference, but, but it is in it’s nice to be affirmed.
Shannon M. 49:35
I hear you. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That’s a great wisdom action. My understand. I heard you ask me. Mine is, oh, there’s so many. Actually, you know what we’re talking about wellness and wisdom minus two to finish my goal for this week. And my goal for this week is to follow up with my goals for the last two weeks. So we are still in the month so I’m I’m still on track with everything. But just to tie up those loose ends, get on track with everything that I have to get done for the rest of November. And I think that’ll put me in a good spot for my intellectual wellness. What about you?
Christine Gautreaux 50:14
I have some homework to do. You know, I’ve been doing this arts equity for board members. And I’ve got some homework and reading to do around that. It’s a it’s a anti racist program. So I’ve got some reading some listening. I don’t have it in front of me. So I can’t tell you exactly the names of it. But I’m also going to be listening to that podcast that I was talking about earlier. And I will put that in our show notes. So yeah, I’m going to keep on truckin. I think, you know, 15 to 30 minutes a day, is my wisdom. And actually for listening to something that besides my I would say, in addition to my fiction, because I can do fiction all day long, right? It’s my escapism. But it’s 30 minutes of, of, you know, different. And I love what you said, Wendy, about looking for authors that are not white males, like let’s look for trans and women of color. And let’s look for, you know, lifting up voices that may have been oppressed. Because thank goodness with the new publishing and the new ways that people can get things to press, we have access in a way that we never had when I was growing up. So I’m really excited about it. Thank you, Wendy, for being here today. Thanks for this awesome conversation. I’m grateful for you. So I’ll be back in the green room.
Shannon M. 51:44
Thank you so much.
Christine Gautreaux 51:47
Ah, such a powerful conversation. Yeah. When you think about that, what’s the one thing that bubbles up for you, Shannon, that you’re like, I want to learn? Or I want to know more about that.
Shannon M. 52:03
If I had to pick one thing, what one thing I really liked was the creative becoming, you know, it’s so true. And I think that it for me, it gives grace to who you were, who you are right now. And the the, the fragile balance of whatever stance you’re in, in life, you know, and then what is to come and everything that you’re working on becoming? So I really like the creative becoming, what does that look like? For me? That’s what I’m thinking about.
Christine Gautreaux 52:33
Yeah, I love that part of their pedagogy. Yeah, and, you know, I’m a huge advocate for the play, and whether it’s the intra or the inter, like, just bring on the play. And I think about the last two years, and I think about if I didn’t have these processes, like if I didn’t have interplay, if I didn’t have ways to process things through my body, and I don’t know, that’d be still standing, you know. So I think they’re important. And I encourage our listeners to, you know, find something that works for them. And we’re always going on about taking a deep breath and let it out. But you know, deep breathing in these times is important, you know? So absolutely. What is happening over a shallow globe before we jump off this call putting
Shannon M. 53:20
in so much so markets, of course, I’m giving gifts to the city of Atlanta, that’s what it feels like, right? Meeting people, teaching them how to take care of themselves. And it’s so interesting, because, Christina, I thought that I was going to have to learn how to sell right and be a better sales woman. But really, it’s not even the product is people not knowing how to take care of themselves. The fact that everybody’s just okay with no, I don’t do anything when I get out the shower edges. And it’s, I didn’t realize that it was such a big piece of what we miss on a daily basis, when we go through everything we just forget about our bodies, like our bodies isn’t the vehicle that is taking us through this journey. So I am getting ready for my next market. I’m so excited on Small Business Saturday, we’re going to be out there with the American Express Black Saturday, with Atlanta, nd markets. So it’s been great being out there with Mike and flex and everybody having a good time in the middle of the city. And it’s really historical, you know, with people not working and everything that’s been going on with COVID to be again, a young black woman with my own business out in the city helping families and individuals take care of themselves. I love it. I love it. And for everybody who has a listener for when we can get connected and wisdom. Yes, you do have your own special discount code, the wise five, and I’m going to talk to my business partner see see what he thinks about being able to bundle this with some of the sales that we have coming up. Let’s see what I can do for you guys. But yes, we have a new size Is the travel of Glow Kit. That’s three ounce it’ll pass through TSA. Okay, no questions. So you don’t have to wait to buy product when you get there. You don’t have to worry about throwing away your favorite item. I’ll tell you this. Christine, one time I was traveling to Texas, right? Pablo used to fly us out. We got flew out, okay, like the young people say. So we got flew out to Texas, me and Dimitri, one of my co managers, he was from Greece. And I had this big 10 ounce container of organic unfilter whatever it is unrefined coconut oil. Of course, it’s not TSA approved into the trash. He goes, right. And so our plane is late. We’re chillin at the airport, and I’m just thinking about the fact that I couldn’t take my bag and he’s like, You should really come down. You can buy it when we get there. And I said, Dimitri, they don’t have 10 ounce containers of Unrefined Organic Coconut Oil at the airport. Okay, so we have the traveling Glow Kit. And then we have the home Glow Kit, which is the bigger size the eight ounce container so you can share it with your family and not worry about them stealing it. So that is
Christine Gautreaux 56:03
like I gave last year for Christmas. I gave my mom one of your kits and she absolutely loved it. So I just want to give a shout out. I don’t think I knew that. And you’re saying yeah, we had it delivered to her. Yeah, she loved it. So she’s always on the hunt for good lotion and good oil. And I was thinking about that because I was trying to think about how to ask be really subtle about this. She still have some left. She needs some more. You know figuring out for holiday gifts, but I will testify that Shayla glow is great for stocking stuffers are under the under the tree if you are given gifts this year. Well, my friend enjoyed this conversation with you today and our guests. We look forward to more. Next week, we’re on the eve of the American holiday where we’re giving gratitude and taking some time with our families and I look forward to talking to you.
Shannon M. 56:58
Yes, me too. And thank you so much for our listeners and everybody that’s been downloading. We will be here next week Live at Five and don’t forget, be well be wise. And we’ll see you next week.
Unknown Speaker 57:19
Thanks for listening. This has been the women connected and wisdom podcast on air live on Wednesdays at 5pm. Eastern via Facebook and YouTube. Be sure to like share and subscribe be part of the conversation and get connected at women connected in wisdom.com.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Shannon M. 0:08
Let’s do this. Okay, ladies, welcome to our podcast. I am Shannon Mitchell, a black female, millennial entrepreneur, the founder of shallow glow, a handmade shea butter company. I am a champion for your self care, business care and intentional wellness.
Christine Gautreaux 0:25
And I am Christine Gautreaux, a white social justice advocate, an international speaker, coach and published author who helps you upgrade yourself in community care.
Shannon M. 0:35
Yes. And together, we are women connected in wisdom, a podcast grounded in the eight dimensions of wellness. Welcome, welcome to our show.
Christine Gautreaux 0:43
And we love to get together every week to have intentional conversations about how to be wise and business relationships and wellness. How do we do all this and keep our sanity as part of- (begins laughing)
Shannon M. 0:56
these gotta stay?
Christine Gautreaux 0:59
Well, today we’re talking about intellectual wellness, which I always love. It is one I have to be honest, it is one of those when we’re going through the eight. Like when we’re listing off the eight wellness, sometimes it’s one that I forget. And I’m like, Oh, wait, wait, wait, this is important. Right? And I know what’s one of your favorite, my friends who you and I are both avid readers. And so I know it’s
Shannon M. 1:25
I mean, if and I talk about this all the time, if I were to take away all the knowledge that I know from books, where would I be, you know, especially I just told everybody, right? I’m a black millennial business owner, how did that happen? You know, I definitely had to read a few books and learn a few things and have conversations. So I love it because it’s added so much to my life. Absolutely.
Christine Gautreaux 1:50
It’s also something I don’t take for granted, which we’re gonna share with our listeners in a few minutes, the actual definition that we work off of, you know, oftentimes when I think about intellectual illness, I think about school, and it can be so much more. But you know, in my lineage I’ve been I’ve been researching more on ancestry.com and all that. You know, I come from folks that come from farmers and sharecroppers, and I come from a lot of folks who have a second grade education, because they had to come home to work on the farm. And so, I always knew that from my grandparents, because they came home from the Great Depression to work on the farm, from school, but as I look back on multiple generations, it’s like, whoa, like, oh, in the census, she had a second grade education. She had a fourth grade education, she added, it’s, and it was also why education was so important to my grandparents, like for their children and their children’s children. Now, that being said, My papa, this is my paternal grandfather was the smartest man I ever knew one of the kindest, and one of the smartest, he built a house from the ground up. Did all the electrical, you know, this was back before permits, right? We always laugh because he built a beautiful log cabin for my grandmother, but all the electric was upside down. Instead of turning it on, you turned it down to turn it on, but it works. I believe he had a third grade education. I so. So what’s the official definition of intellectual wellness? What are we working on today?
Shannon M. 3:31
Yeah, so intellectual wellness refers to active participation in Scholastic, cultural and community activities. It is important to gain and maintain intellectual wellness because it expands knowledge and skills in order to live a stimulating successful life. In order to improve intellectual wellness. It is important to value creativity, curiosity, and lifelong learning. And this definition is specifically from the University of Illinois.
Christine Gautreaux 4:00
And lifelong learning, right?
Shannon M. 4:02
Yes.
Christine Gautreaux 4:03
We’ll ask our guests when they come up in a minute, but what are you currently reading? Because I know you always have a book that you’re reading.
Shannon M. 4:10
Yes, I’m reading so I will say two things I’m reading still. What is it, Laura, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, okay, I know effective people finish things. So my goal for November, my book goal is to finish this book since I’ve been reading it since last year, I started the B 2.0 That you gave me but I told you, I don’t want to dig too deep into that book until I finish. So technically, those are the two that I’m reading. And I’m also listening to an audio book when I’m in the car. That’s titled, Lies My Teacher Told Me
Christine Gautreaux 4:43
yes, big stuff.
Shannon M. 4:45
Yes. What about you? What are you reading right now?
Christine Gautreaux 4:47
I was looking because you know how I laughed because I read on my phone. I listened to Audible I was like, which– so I always have a series of fiction going that’s how I escaped Like I always have a series of just 15 minutes where I fall asleep. I preorder Brene brands Atlas of the heart. One of the ones that pops up first on my book is emergent strategy. But I popped back in and out of that book, I wouldn’t say I’m reading it, you know, straight out. But just listen to the essentialist book, we talked about that recently, I think we, I would have to pull up audible to tell you the latest one, I’ve been doing a lot of podcasts lately. So there is a new podcast about indigenous wisdom that I’ve been listening to that I’ll put in the show notes. Um, because I’ve been taking a class with the southern movement assembly, and about decolonization. And so they recommended this podcast. And so it’s new. It’s, you know, I’m listening versus reading with a, you know, but hey, as podcast host, I’m like, what? We can support that?
Shannon M. 6:00
Absolutely. When I find out how many books CEOs read every year, I said, You know what, let me start listening to audio books. Because sometimes reading the physical pages not gonna get fit into the schedule.
Christine Gautreaux 6:12
I don’t know if this statistic is still true or not. And our guests won’t be able to tell us but I somewhere I read somewhere years ago that if you read 15 minutes a day, on your subject, you would be an expert. It was either within a year or two years and have read more than most people who work in that field. And so I thought, oh, that’s fascinating, right? Just 15 minutes a day. Like it doesn’t have to be hours. And now that we have podcasts now that we have audible books now that we have different ways to do it. I mean, yeah. All right. Well, I think we should bring up our guest. We have up say something else. I will say it after we’re all at the table. All right, awesome. Well, y’all know I love introducing guests, and I especially love introducing guests who I consider personal friends also. And today’s guest is one of those. So Gwendolyn windy Balu is the artistic and administrative leader of reforming arts. They founded reforming arts in 2010. As an arts and humanities education program for people incarcerated in women’s prisons in Georgia. This name is gonna sound familiar to y’all because I’ve shouted out reforming arts a lot on this show. Wendy has taught at Kennesaw State University and continues to teach indirect performing arts classes inside and outside of women’s prisons facilities in Georgia, and they facilitate Performing Arts Theater reentry project. Wendy is a co founder of the Georgia coalition of higher education in prison and the southern higher education and prison collective. Wendy has a bachelor’s degree in theater, an MBA a master’s in American Studies, a graduate certificate in women’s studies, and is a PhD candidate in qualitative research and evaluation methodologies at the University of Georgia. perfect candidate for talking about intellectual well is with us today. In 2018, windy was named a woman making a mark by Atlanta magazine and a woman to watch by Weight Watchers magazine in 2019. The arts exchange awarded Wende and reforming arts with an Elon Dooley Arts and Social Justice Champion award. I am so excited to invite to our podcast today my friend, Wende Ballew. Hello, hello.
Wende Ballew 8:38
Hey y’all!
Christine Gautreaux 8:40
How are you today?
Wende Ballew 8:41
Um, I’m pretty good. I got a headache. But I’m getting used to that.
Shannon M. 8:51
How much water have you had? Every time somebody says something? I said? That’s my first question.
Wende Ballew 8:56
Good bit. I’m just sensitive to lying. And so I’ve, you know, been on the screen a lot today.
Christine Gautreaux 9:03
Well, the last two years is hard for that. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, Wende Ballew. Thank you for coming on and talking to us about intellectual wisdom and wellness today. I specifically wanted you to come on because first of all, I adore you and I adore performing arts and the work that we’re doing in the world. But talk to us about your dissertation and what you’re currently working on in the juiciness of what you are creating in the world right now.
Wende Ballew 9:36
Okay.
Well, it’s been a long journey. I started working towards the desert of the writing curriculum and pedagogy. And I started that as part of my women’s or my American Studies program at Kennesaw 10 years ago, 12 years ago, something long time ago. And then I actually when I started it, you UGA in PhD program, I was in the Lifelong Learning Program and that kind of switched to workforce learning, which I was like I could do, I consider that to be kind of like organizational behavior, which I could have gotten a PhD from school business and gotten paid more. I, I kind of switched programs, the American Studies, it’s funny because the American Studies program was brand new when I, I was the first cohort. And the same thing happened at UGA, they announced this new Ph. D program, I was in the first cohort, but I’ve taken so long that I was not the first graduate from that program. But um, so what we’re working on is kind of looking at a critical pedagogy, which was specifically as our CO Pedagogy of the Oppressed really by Paulo Freire A. And he wrote that 19th came out in United States, I think, in 1970. And then, as I still while followed that up with Theater of the Oppressed, and he did a lot of designs, a lot of well didn’t design like, everybody still theater exercises from everybody else, right, you just recycle them. But he wrote them in a in a way to really talk about doing theater, not for the spectators for the average people in Brazil, to talk to to do consciousness raising with them, and to prepare them for action. And he says that theater is not revolution revolution, but it is rehearsal for a revolution. And so I’ve taken those mostly and read them through or what I call diffract them through. I’m Karen barotz, reading of quantum entanglement, and she’s a science theorists and a feminist. And also, she, she really looked at diffracting Judith Butler’s concept of gender performativity. And then she read that as queer performativity, and talks about the queerness of performativity. So performativity is very central to a lot of my argument, and, you know, works really well when you’re using theatre as your main research method, which I do was called, it’s called theatre action research. And that was written by I learned about it from James B. Thompson, from the UK. And he’s a theatre practitioner, I think, in Manchester. So we’ve just been doing all kinds of like, Shut writing shows I’ve been observing for over a decade. And then we’re really getting close to this pedagogy, which we’re calling right now. Creative, interactive pedagogy slash research, slash theater, doesn’t really feel like I do it all at the same time. And it’s all entangled together.
Christine Gautreaux 13:23
So Wende, for a lay person who’s listening, who might be saying, What the heck is pedagogy? Right, you break it down for our listeners,
Wende Ballew 13:33
it’s the study and know of teaching. How do we teach? How do we know what and then you know, I also go into a lot of epistemology is like how do we know what we know? And then ontology, which is, you know, the practice of being, you know, and so I really feel like creative interactive pedagogy is not just a it’s all of those things at the same time.
Christine Gautreaux 14:07
So, give us an example. I know because I’ve I’ve played in some of these classes with you as a volunteer for performing arts, but what are some of the things you do with folks who are reentering society or who are currently incarcerated in Georgia?
Wende Ballew 14:22
Well, let me say, you know, again, the goal of like a lot of pi theater that you’re taking into the community is again to to our language around it has typically been about you know, getting people in their bodies or getting people comfortable getting to know ourselves getting to know each other getting you know, and becoming more observant and then consciousness raising, you know, and then taking action. Right. Sometimes the taking action part gets left out, but um, and you know, taking theater from that Something designed to control people. And to something that live helps people be liberated. One of the things that performing arts does is we believe in narrative control. So we a lot of programs that do this type of theater, they, they say no pen to paper, right? They, it’s all improv. And even to the point of when the show the nine of the, if you have an audience, it’s still just improv. Well, we did that for several years. And then we stopped doing it. And we started inviting creative writers. And we started teaching, putting comp one and two in our programs and poetry in our program. And that’s it so that we give people the tools to tell their own stories. Right, we help them become better writers, better, better storytellers, in order to tell their own stories, not just within our class, but when they are released, and they have to fill out a job application and they have to go to a job interview, and they get that the this terrible questions? Oh, I see there’s a gap. Or I see, you know, you know, what happened? And so they can, because, you know, people that have been incarcerated. And a lot of people, well, you know, what happened was, and I’m like, Okay, so that’s the way you start a lie. Yeah. And so how do we, how do we get people to say things and so that other people will have confidence in our response, and not be suspicious of our response. So the four tenets of our pedagogy, our interaction, and that, again, is getting know ourselves getting comfortable in our bodies, we’ve spent a lot of time and on exercises that I don’t quite know how to teach virtually, about the trust exercises, you know, and that is getting most of that is getting people to close their eyes and trust somebody else in the room. And which is very difficult. It’s very difficult for me, I’m model it, I do an exercise where we have to run across the room with our eyes closed, and the people will will stop us and keep us from being harmed. And I always start with that. Because it’s scares me so bad, that I inevitably, I keep going, but I inevitably slow down and start cussing in the middle. And, of course, I think that’s hilarious. But it also displays that, that I’ve been through trauma, truth two, I don’t trust either, but I’m doing this anyway. Right? I’m just, I’m leaning into it and doing something that scares the hell out of me. And, you know, mostly with, I might know, one or two of the people in the room, but mostly people that I don’t know, right? So then we go to, let me pull it up my cheat sheet, say, say it right. And then we go to post human play. And
I actually developed this through observing Christine, in her in her work at Mercy care, and watch just how certain exercises get people into this mode of play. And, and when I think of a mode of play, it’s a way of being like, and that we just really understanding, we talked a little bit about this before about how difficult how different it is teaching in a prison, how people you know, are such in their scarcity modes and things like that. So you have to get them into this mode of play, where they are able to separate themselves from all of the stresses that’s going on around them so that they’re able to learn. And I really believe that everybody, you know, that we are more able to enter into discussions and conversations with a sense of understanding, if we first go into a mode of play.
Christine Gautreaux 19:44
Can I add something in here when doing so you know, as a volunteer for reforming arts? I’ve done interplay in the women’s prison system in Georgia. And every time you tell, start talking about that Think about this one person who we were doing an exercise in getting into that mode of play. And when we took a moment afterwards to notice, and we were in medium to maximum security prison, they were a person with a life sentence. Like one of the most restrictive environments you can be in, and we got into a mode of play. And when they noticed what they were feeling in their body, they were feeling freedom. Yeah. And when I think about the power of that, like, it makes me want to cry, cuz it’s like, this is powerful work.
Wende Ballew 20:38
Yeah, we’re talking,
Christine Gautreaux 20:40
play. I mean, it’s intellectual, but it’s play, I’m sorry to interrupt you, I just, I don’t want
Wende Ballew 20:46
to miss that connection, right? When we have this, that’s the thing that the Cognito did to us all that you know, and then we just keep regurgitating these knowledges of these old Whiteman, Roman and Greek men. And that believed that it was okay for some humans to own other humans, like whatever else they wrote, they believed that, and we keep regurgitating it, and repackaging it, and calling it the dialectic or calling it like the what is core. But anyway, it we’ve got to get away from that. And the core of our pedagogy is about fostering an ethic of care. And, you know, I look at that ethic of care as not as a binary against just, you know, with justice. But as it needs to be our central ethic of caring for each other. Now, that’s going to be displayed in I’m not a nurturing person, you know, don’t call me if you’ve got the flu.
Christine Gautreaux 21:55
I’m calling you and I want you to make me some homemade soup from Saudi your garden, just saying?
Wende Ballew 22:04
Well, that’s my type of nurturing, right, I’ll make you that I’ll pick the vegetables, cook it, and I’ll bring it to you, but don’t ask me to bring it to you, you know, like, then you have to get out of bed and come get it and put it in your bow. But, you know, I am a very caring person and trying to, to talk about how we care about each other, or, you know, and quite frankly, the last few years have just broken my heart, as Christine well knows. I mean, I’m, I’m heartbroken over people’s response and their selfishness. And I know a lot of it is founded in fear. But it, it’s broken my heart, I mean, and so then let’s transition, let’s go on to the fourth Tenet, which is the fraction that you in other people’s thing that would be called analysis. And one of the things and one of the critiques I’ve had is that with theater is so embodied, you know, you’re using your body you’re using, you’re bringing in a little bit, you know, they talk a little bit about spirit. But it’s really, you know, talking about our body knowledge, but then we’ll do exercises, and for the longest time, I would follow that up with or your do a whole play. And then, you know, when it’s about the top back, and people, you know, talking about what they saw and whatever. But again, the interplay, and Christine did me a huge favor, by just coming in one day and saying what you’ve noticed, and instead of taking that exercise that we’ve just done, and talking intellectually about what we thought, or that it was about communication, or about this, or about everything, whatever, then we started talking about what we noticed in our bodies first.
And it is a simple thing. But it is a profound shift. It is a profound shift, and how we think, and how we learn, and how we teach.
Christine Gautreaux 24:17
And I would add on to that, especially with folks who’ve been in trauma, because you know, they don’t want to be in their bodies. I mean, understandably so because a lot of times it’s painful, and it’s scary. And it’s hard. You know, it’s it’s a survival mechanism to zip out of your body or not paying attention to what’s going on in your body. So yeah, yes, I want to affirm that. Shannon, you look like you have a question or comment?
Shannon M. 24:42
Yeah, I would say it depends on what type of trauma it is, you know, especially me being a young woman who does have a bachelor’s degree who had the opportunity to do that. I’m thinking about what you’re talking about Wendy and learning and being mobile physically in the difference of me Being in the front of my classroom taking notes that takes my hand, some neck movements in my brain, you know. So as a woman, especially getting older and thinking about femininity, and what I want it to look like, to me, it’s been interesting to think about my body a little bit more, and not just my brain. Because everything’s been either I’m working and I’m physically walking around the building, or using my brain and think about something and learning a new skill or whatever that looks like, whether it’s me reading a book, or listening to a book. Those are usually the variations that I think about, I don’t think about if I have to dance today, or if I’ve played and what that looks like, and the combining of the two. That’s what I love about interplay and everything that that you guys talk about.
Wende Ballew 25:46
Right? And so, you know, I’m here to, like, people assume I do this, and all of this is intuitive to me. Right, right. Christine’s already laughing. I hate it all. Like I, like I resist, I live in my head. I am. I’m my brain is big, and it likes to learn, and it’s where I feel comfortable. And yet I, I majored in theater, as a stage manager, and technical director, right, like, um, you know, and so, all of this has been uncomfortable for me from the very beginning. But it, but I just the evidence, like Brene, brown, says, you know, she talks a lot about how all this vulnerability and stuff makes her so uncomfortable, it makes me so incredibly uncomfortable. And that is a, that’s a big aspect of our classes is that encouraging people to become vulnerable, so that they can build resilience makes me so uncomfortable, but it’s essential in healing. And that is our kind of pivot right now with performing arts, our last tenant is creative becoming, and that I say that instead of like, revolution, or action or, or transformation, because I don’t, there’s no, he, I’ve never seen a human go through an actual metaphor morphus, where they go from a worm to a caterpillar. So I, and they’re in transformation kind of alludes to a utopia. And there is no utopia. Each time we reveal, we make some progress, that we’re just we’re just shine light on new problems that we weren’t able to see before. But if we’re, you know, come together in this creative becoming of trying to, to create something new together, then then that’s a change. And that’s a shift. And it can’t define it forever, but it won’t be the same for
Shannon M. 27:57
everybody.
Wende Ballew 28:02
And then also say that we’re, as I’ve learned more about trauma. We just want to be more so much more conscious and focused on helping people using this pedagogy to help people heal from trauma.
Christine Gautreaux 28:19
Alright, right. I love that windy. Thank you for that work. I mean, I’ve witnessed it. I’ve witnessed in an action if witnessed the changes, it’s not always easy. I mean, you saying that about? It’s uncomfortable? Or it’s like it’s, yeah, I mean, and to your point about, sometimes it takes uncomfortability to build that resilience, if everything feels good, if I mean, we talked about this when we talked about anti racist work, and we’ve talked about social justice, if it all feels good, you’re probably not doing it the right way. This is hard work. This is this is it’s meaningful, and it’s important, but it’s not always easy. And, and, and holding both at the same time. We can do it with clay, we can do it with dancing, we can do it with joy, we can do it with you know, with laughter even on big scary subjects, you know,
Shannon M. 29:16
and and I would say it’s not a I think that before I was here had turned paradigm shifts. Right. I would think that that sounds like you were making it unrealistically optimistic or I feel like some people think that’s the fluff in it but no, it is absolutely necessary to laugh you know because all this other stuff is going to happen if you don’t laugh as well as get upset at the things that you should get upset at then there isn’t the the equal sides or maybe you know both sides of the coin. I won’t call him equal however you would think about it, but you guys understand what I’m saying. Like you have to laugh. I think that playing for me it reminds me of keeping that childlike spirit Write some of that is serious, absolutely, I should pay my sales tax for my business before the end of the month, we know that should be taken care of, you know, but I can also go roll down a hill with some grass on it and relax a little bit because it’s a lot. And sometimes we don’t have to hold the weight of it, we can just live our lives and enjoy that moment. And then when it’s time to work, and you have that time block in your schedule, now it’s time to give the effort, you know where it should go. But absolutely, that’s why I love learning more about the play, because I usually didn’t think about it. I’m thinking about my grades and everything else that went into that formula for me when I was in school.
Christine Gautreaux 30:40
When do we were talking before the show about a lesson that you had learned in regard to dance in it in? Do you want to share about that?
Wende Ballew 30:52
Yes. What did what do we say? Yes. So, you know, one of the things I was saying is like, you know, I tend to well, for many years, our primary our performing arts was placed based and we taught in women’s prisons, and also had a reentry program, we still have the reentry program, and we’re still able to teach in the prisons. But that’s a very stressful and and usually I would get when I arrived at a prison, I’d get there about 730 and leave about 4pm. And it’s very stressful. I’m getting it. It’s It’s It’s dehumanizing even for the volunteers to go into a prison. And so I would, again, I’m running a not for profit, I have too many dogs. I’m been in some type of graduate program, most of my adult life. And so I’m like, Well, this is a good time for me to listen to an article or something like that. So I would just be in my head the whole time? Or are you thinking about, you know, the staff person that I really, really don’t like, or that has really caused me a lot of trauma. And then I went and stressed, you know, start the day stressed, I go into a stressful situation are already tense, right? And so what I was saying was that, in the future, what I’m going to do is have a playlist of things that are you know, really bring me joy, for at least that last 30 minutes before I enter such a tense situation. I really feel like I’ve made a lot of mistakes around that before. But I hope I am able to change my practice because you know, as y’all know, just because you know better doesn’t necessarily mean you do better.
Christine Gautreaux 32:54
Right? That’s such a good point. So Wendy, what would be one song that would be on that playlist? I want us to all go around and say a song that would be on our playlist that would bring us joy. Or that we’d want to what do you think?
Wende Ballew 33:11
I think one of my I don’t know if I’ve told you this Christine. One of my favorite songs right now and over the summer just was campaign and by myself and I just played hallelujah by Brandi Carlile over and over again. And I’m a mimic my taco back thing I mimic, right. And so I listened to that. And I pulled up the lyrics, and I mimicked her hmm. And she sings that with such a, like, in again, not necessarily joy, but it just brought out all those emotions that needed to come out. And so I now when I’m like no, really I need to focus and I need to get this out. I just play that song. And I sing it with her. I mean, and I’m really belted out with her and I that puts me in that.
Christine Gautreaux 34:02
I love that Shannon, what about you? What’s one song that would be on that playlist?
Shannon M. 34:07
I would say don’t worry about a thing by Stevie Wonder. Because you know, I speak Spanish not fluently yet. But at the beginning of the song. We’re like, Wait, he really just made something up. But it’s Stevie Wonder. So he put it in a song. He’s like, Hey, shouldn’t you understand any of that? And she’s like, knowing that she don’t understand anything he just said and I think it’s just playful. They’re dancing, you know? And then I get it’s like me getting my tempo, especially since I used to be in band. But it’s funny. Pharaoh said something about his machine and doing her scales. And I said you know what? It’s actually really good point. So I do have a playlist that like gets me in tune with positivity. There’s hope is going to be okay. Don’t worry about anything. We can have fun and get stuff done to what’s your song.
Christine Gautreaux 34:55
I love this show because I use it with myself and I use it with my private clients and my coaching clients is like, music can shift us like it could be a 30 minute playlist. It could be one song you can put on. Oh so many but you know, one of my faves is resilient by rising Appalachia like it is. If I need like a, you got this song, I’ll put that on. Karen Drucker’s one of my favorites who I just felt out with and I used to shift my energy with talking about Don’t worry about a thing. I don’t know if we’ve talked about this on air before, but I’m a little bit addicted to watching the voice. I don’t. So I know when he’s like what? Development This is a new development from the pandemic. And I’m not a reality TV girl, unless it comes to things that Pete watching people make their dreams come true. Like, yes, I love witnessing that. Well, they were singing I can’t remember who was singing it the other night. There’s Stevie Wonder’s Don’t worry about a thing. But I also wanted to tell windy, because Wendy’s on this part of town. One of the contestants is from East Point, Georgia. And he’s like one of the top 11. And I’m just like, Atlanta represented. So yes to music, and yes to creating our playlists, and I would love any of our listeners out there to to give us a shout out and put it in the comments or put it on our social media, like what’s on your playlist? What is your go to, for shifting your energy and bringing joy? I love that. Right? Yeah, I think it’s important. Yeah.
Wende Ballew 36:39
Who wants on, you know, finding out what’s on other people’s playlist? Because, you know, like I say, on that same trip, it was I have created a playlist called Mountain healing. And I put a lot of Brandi Carlile on it and things like that. But I also chant, you know, Christine knows this, because I’ve told her that I was like, Okay, I mean, let me let me search for Christine music now. Because she’s positivity and stuff. And I hate that, but I kind of need to hear it right.
Shannon M. 37:09
That’s why we’re connected. Yeah. You wouldn’t normally do to get out of it.
Christine Gautreaux 37:17
Well, the other thing, one of my favorite tricks is the free app. Shazam, that if you don’t have it on your phone, I highly recommend it. It’s a free app that you can just press your button, say Shazam. And it will tell you the song that’s playing. Because I can’t tell you how many times like I’ve been going through a drive thru, or you’re hearing music or even somebody playing music in the car next to me, right, and they’re playing it loud. I’m like, Well, I like that. And but I don’t know what it is. So if I hit Shazam, it will capture the music for me. And then I can put it into my playlist. So as a leader of interplay, and somebody that teaches a lot of classes, it’s an incredible tool. But I recommend it to everybody, because then you just build and then I have certain platelets designated for you know, I found that out in the world. But now, Wendy, I know that the pandemic has been devastating on the women in prison in Georgia, and really all across the nation. Is there anything that our listeners can do, like, as we talked last week about calling our legislatures we, you know, we we promote action items around here. So is there anything that we can do in support of women who are currently incarcerated?
Wende Ballew 38:37
Yeah, we’re, we’re so disconnected right now, you know, we’re keeping in touch with the department of corrections, but we’re not but since we’re not, since we’re still considered volunteers, we can’t have interaction with, you know, our former or our students. And so I don’t even know what like the Yes, constantly called legislators, the governor’s office, things like that to encourage, you know, testing because there as far as I know, they’re still not doing regular testing. You know, the governor refuses to mandate the vaccine. And it you know, yes, people most people there have committed crimes, you know, they’re there. They’re serving their Senate’s um, but just the, as we see, you know, like the masking, not masking, you know, like all of these things, put people like people are such enraged about it right now. And any of those things, anything that you are seeing as an increased anger or as an increased whatever in society, everything that is in society is in prison. but it is hyper, like, you know, like, so whatever tensions you’re seeing amongst your family or whatever it is 100% guaranteed that it is also happening in a prison. And it is 1000 times worse.
Christine Gautreaux 40:20
Whoo. I think about that, when you say that when, you know, we’re getting ready for holiday celebrations in the next couple of weeks. And I know there’s a lot of conversation around, you know, having to be with family or choosing to be with family or not. And you saying that what, what just popped into my head was imagine if we were all locked in with our families with no choice for weeks, like I think about that. I don’t know why that just popped up in my head, you know, and but I’m like, Whoa, yeah, that would be magnified. That would be we were talking about family gatherings coming up Shannon and, and just big energy right now. To be around all this?
Wende Ballew 41:10
Well, I want to say to like it, one of the things about knowledge and you know, this whole thing for me, this journey is a bit about understanding, gaining more understanding, and realizing, mostly trying to understand my parents more, which are, they are unusual people. And my, one of the things that I really regretted, during this whole thing was so my father’s in prison. He’s been in prison for 35 years. He’s at Huntsville State Penitentiary in Huntsville, Texas. And, at one point, last year, he that prison, you know, Houston’s just outside of Houston, you know, in Huntsville, they had all these COVID cases, you know, like work, they are testing in the facility where he is. But they also had like, two weeks of no electricity or water. And I’m sure there were people calling out, you know, you know, how’s this? How’s my loved one? How is my loved one, and they were being told something that I know is absolutely not true. I, in those two weeks, I regretted all of the understanding that I have about how the criminal justice system really works. It, it, it was very difficult for me to know he was living through that. And that there was no way I was going to get the truth of what was actually going on.
Christine Gautreaux 42:45
Well, and when we talk about trauma, and we talked about basic needs, and two weeks without water, or lights in a lockdown situation and who Yeah. It’s in Huntsville has some of the worst reputation in the nation for their carceral control. You know, that’s the state I’m from, and actually have relatives working in that prison. It is just a, like, small world, right? It is. So much.
Wende Ballew 43:22
So we just had to keep taking our deep breaths. And again, you know, like, just make sure you Well, I don’t regret all of them learn, but you know, like, what, are we spending our time on regurgitating? Or are we, you know, trying to, you know, find new ways or create new ways of living together and understanding? I don’t, I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t think we’ve created it yet. But
Christine Gautreaux 43:54
when I think even having the intention to learn, right, if you haven’t been exposed to the criminal justice system, believe the, you know, a lot of the lies that are out there about it’s only horrible people that are put in jail, you know, like, educate yourself about yes, there are a lot of people that have committed crimes and why and where did that come from? And, you know, where their basic needs not met, like there’s so it’s such a complex system, that that for me, there’s more understanding and not like learning about it.
Wende Ballew 44:33
Well, this kind of ties into something we were saying before, was that, you know, again, we’re reforming Arts is pivoting towards you know, helping people recover from trauma and I’m actually in January, I’m enrolled to start in a certificate program for trauma healers, and and I’ve worked through a lot of my own complex PTSD because of my childhood and because of some of that things that that happened to me as a volunteer in prisons. But um, you know, I was saying that what one of the things that are most profound learning for me over the last few years was, many years ago, I sat through a psychologist talking about ending mass incarceration conference in Mississippi. And he was talking about criminal behavior, and how people with criminal mindsets respond to altercations, and things like that. And then, more recently, I was listening to these books on trauma, I think I think it was serene Jones, who is a president of Union Theological Seminary, and her book, grace and trauma was talking about, you know, detailing how a person reacts, and when they’re in a cycle of trauma. And it was the exact same thing y’all. Like, you know, like, intellectually or up here somewhere. I’ve known that all these people have been traumatized that they’re all in trauma that, but it is, it is, and it’s intentional, like people are intentionally allowing some people to live in such risky and precarious situations that they inevitably become traumatized. And then they’re easier to control.
Christine Gautreaux 46:31
Whew, we could have a whole nother show about that. And we should have you back Wendy after next year going through this program. And Shannon, did you have any comments or questions before we wrap the section?
Shannon M. 46:47
No, no, no, I think about well, I guess I do have a comment a reminds me of this paper I wrote when I was in college, the disproportion disproportionate incarceration of black men, you know, and it was so interesting. I was watching something the other day, and this gentleman was talking about how he got brought into the cell. And it was like, the biggest bird cage he had ever seen. And I had never thought about it like that. But I’m thinking about all these men and their families. And the women definitely, of course, were women connected with them. So we got to talk about the women that are incarcerated, too. And not to say that I’m not for accountability. And this happens, and this happens next, you know, we have to have consequences. That’s understandable. But like you said, Wendy, the dehumanizing part. Like you said, Christina, how do we get there, the things that are set up, we have to deal with the root, or no matter what the programs are, that we have or what we say what we do, we are still part of the system that’s perpetuating the end result that we’re saying we don’t want. So that’s why I love your program so much, Wendy. I remember I was on the call, I think was the anniversary we were celebrating everything that you you guys are doing at reforming arts. And I’m just thankful because I don’t know if I have the emotional space for decades to go into the prison system and help women I’m so thankful that there’s a program like reforming arts and everything else that you’re doing to help because it’s necessary
Christine Gautreaux 48:17
Yeah, that was the 10 year anniversary program.
Shannon M. 48:21
Yeah, that’s awesome.
Christine Gautreaux 48:25
Shannon will you tell our listeners in windy what wisdom inaction is about and we will
Shannon M. 48:30
Yes. Absolutely. So like like you said, we love to have action steps so we talked about intellectual wisdom led to a lot of different things. When the what is your one thing this week that you’re going to do to be intentional about your intellectual wisdom
Wende Ballew 48:51
I’m reading a book called Radical belonging by Linda Bacon, about body acceptance and they’re now their perspective from being gender non conforming.
Shannon M. 49:08
So is it to finish the book or is it to
Wende Ballew 49:11
Yeah, it’s the finish that book and to just really keep thinking through that because it’s been such a gift to me to like hear similar? I you you downplay, you know, when you’re trans but you’re not in either binary you you downplay that difference, but, but it is in it’s nice to be affirmed.
Shannon M. 49:35
I hear you. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That’s a great wisdom action. My understand. I heard you ask me. Mine is, oh, there’s so many. Actually, you know what we’re talking about wellness and wisdom minus two to finish my goal for this week. And my goal for this week is to follow up with my goals for the last two weeks. So we are still in the month so I’m I’m still on track with everything. But just to tie up those loose ends, get on track with everything that I have to get done for the rest of November. And I think that’ll put me in a good spot for my intellectual wellness. What about you?
Christine Gautreaux 50:14
I have some homework to do. You know, I’ve been doing this arts equity for board members. And I’ve got some homework and reading to do around that. It’s a it’s a anti racist program. So I’ve got some reading some listening. I don’t have it in front of me. So I can’t tell you exactly the names of it. But I’m also going to be listening to that podcast that I was talking about earlier. And I will put that in our show notes. So yeah, I’m going to keep on truckin. I think, you know, 15 to 30 minutes a day, is my wisdom. And actually for listening to something that besides my I would say, in addition to my fiction, because I can do fiction all day long, right? It’s my escapism. But it’s 30 minutes of, of, you know, different. And I love what you said, Wendy, about looking for authors that are not white males, like let’s look for trans and women of color. And let’s look for, you know, lifting up voices that may have been oppressed. Because thank goodness with the new publishing and the new ways that people can get things to press, we have access in a way that we never had when I was growing up. So I’m really excited about it. Thank you, Wendy, for being here today. Thanks for this awesome conversation. I’m grateful for you. So I’ll be back in the green room.
Shannon M. 51:44
Thank you so much.
Christine Gautreaux 51:47
Ah, such a powerful conversation. Yeah. When you think about that, what’s the one thing that bubbles up for you, Shannon, that you’re like, I want to learn? Or I want to know more about that.
Shannon M. 52:03
If I had to pick one thing, what one thing I really liked was the creative becoming, you know, it’s so true. And I think that it for me, it gives grace to who you were, who you are right now. And the the, the fragile balance of whatever stance you’re in, in life, you know, and then what is to come and everything that you’re working on becoming? So I really like the creative becoming, what does that look like? For me? That’s what I’m thinking about.
Christine Gautreaux 52:33
Yeah, I love that part of their pedagogy. Yeah, and, you know, I’m a huge advocate for the play, and whether it’s the intra or the inter, like, just bring on the play. And I think about the last two years, and I think about if I didn’t have these processes, like if I didn’t have interplay, if I didn’t have ways to process things through my body, and I don’t know, that’d be still standing, you know. So I think they’re important. And I encourage our listeners to, you know, find something that works for them. And we’re always going on about taking a deep breath and let it out. But you know, deep breathing in these times is important, you know? So absolutely. What is happening over a shallow globe before we jump off this call putting
Shannon M. 53:20
in so much so markets, of course, I’m giving gifts to the city of Atlanta, that’s what it feels like, right? Meeting people, teaching them how to take care of themselves. And it’s so interesting, because, Christina, I thought that I was going to have to learn how to sell right and be a better sales woman. But really, it’s not even the product is people not knowing how to take care of themselves. The fact that everybody’s just okay with no, I don’t do anything when I get out the shower edges. And it’s, I didn’t realize that it was such a big piece of what we miss on a daily basis, when we go through everything we just forget about our bodies, like our bodies isn’t the vehicle that is taking us through this journey. So I am getting ready for my next market. I’m so excited on Small Business Saturday, we’re going to be out there with the American Express Black Saturday, with Atlanta, nd markets. So it’s been great being out there with Mike and flex and everybody having a good time in the middle of the city. And it’s really historical, you know, with people not working and everything that’s been going on with COVID to be again, a young black woman with my own business out in the city helping families and individuals take care of themselves. I love it. I love it. And for everybody who has a listener for when we can get connected and wisdom. Yes, you do have your own special discount code, the wise five, and I’m going to talk to my business partner see see what he thinks about being able to bundle this with some of the sales that we have coming up. Let’s see what I can do for you guys. But yes, we have a new size Is the travel of Glow Kit. That’s three ounce it’ll pass through TSA. Okay, no questions. So you don’t have to wait to buy product when you get there. You don’t have to worry about throwing away your favorite item. I’ll tell you this. Christine, one time I was traveling to Texas, right? Pablo used to fly us out. We got flew out, okay, like the young people say. So we got flew out to Texas, me and Dimitri, one of my co managers, he was from Greece. And I had this big 10 ounce container of organic unfilter whatever it is unrefined coconut oil. Of course, it’s not TSA approved into the trash. He goes, right. And so our plane is late. We’re chillin at the airport, and I’m just thinking about the fact that I couldn’t take my bag and he’s like, You should really come down. You can buy it when we get there. And I said, Dimitri, they don’t have 10 ounce containers of Unrefined Organic Coconut Oil at the airport. Okay, so we have the traveling Glow Kit. And then we have the home Glow Kit, which is the bigger size the eight ounce container so you can share it with your family and not worry about them stealing it. So that is
Christine Gautreaux 56:03
like I gave last year for Christmas. I gave my mom one of your kits and she absolutely loved it. So I just want to give a shout out. I don’t think I knew that. And you’re saying yeah, we had it delivered to her. Yeah, she loved it. So she’s always on the hunt for good lotion and good oil. And I was thinking about that because I was trying to think about how to ask be really subtle about this. She still have some left. She needs some more. You know figuring out for holiday gifts, but I will testify that Shayla glow is great for stocking stuffers are under the under the tree if you are given gifts this year. Well, my friend enjoyed this conversation with you today and our guests. We look forward to more. Next week, we’re on the eve of the American holiday where we’re giving gratitude and taking some time with our families and I look forward to talking to you.
Shannon M. 56:58
Yes, me too. And thank you so much for our listeners and everybody that’s been downloading. We will be here next week Live at Five and don’t forget, be well be wise. And we’ll see you next week.
Unknown Speaker 57:19
Thanks for listening. This has been the women connected and wisdom podcast on-air live on Wednesdays at 5 pm. Eastern via Facebook and YouTube. Be sure to like share and subscribe be part of the conversation and get connected at women connected in wisdom.com.
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