Occupational Wellness With Dr. Waajida Small, Human Resource Expert

Show notes –

Join Shannon and Christine for a chat about Occupational Wellness with special guest, Dr. Waajida Small.

Shealo Glo – www.shealoglo.com  Now offering Subscriptions * Delivered on the 1st & 15th!
Discount Code – WISE5

Nominate your Shearo by emailing subject “My Shearo” to shealoglo@gmail.com

Stillpoint –  https://www.amazon.com/Stillpoint-Self-Care-Playbook-Caregivers-Breathe/dp/1732370400

Join us in community: https://women-connected-in-wisdom.mn.co/feed

Schedule a coaching consult with Christine here: https://www.christinegautreaux.com

Listen to past episodes: https://womenconnectedinwisdompodcast.com/

Like & Subscribe to get notifications when we are live

Instagram @womenconnectedinwisdompodcast – https://www.instagram.com/womenconnectedinwisdompodcast/

Facebook page Women Connected in Wisdom Podcast – https://www.facebook.com/womenconnectedinwisdompodcast

Show Transcript – 

NOTE: While it’s not perfect, we offer this transcription by Otter.ai for those who are hearing impaired or who don’t find listening to a podcast enjoyable or possible.

Shannon M. 0:08
Let’s do this. Okay ladies, welcome to our podcast. I am Shannon Mitchell, a black female, millennial entrepreneur, the founder of shallow glow, a handmade shea butter company. I am a champion for your self care, business care and intentional wellness.

Unknown Speaker 0:25
And I am Christine Gautreaux, a white social justice advocate, an international speaker, coach and published author who helps you upgrade yourself in community care.

Shannon M. 0:35
Yes. And together we are women connected in wisdom, a podcast grounded in the eight dimensions of wellness. Welcome, welcome to our show.

Unknown Speaker 0:44
We’d like to get together every week to have intentional conversations, sometimes just between us and sometimes with amazing and awesome guests. So we’re glad that y’all are here with us today.

Shannon M. 0:55
Yes, yes.

Unknown Speaker 0:56
So tell me how your weeks going my friend.

Shannon M. 0:59
Oh, week is amazing. So, one, it’s so interesting when there’s a lot of good stuff going on. Because it could also be overwhelming, if we’re honest. Right. So coming out with five new products this week. photoshoot is happening right now. I love partnership power, like you talk about how can we get more stuff done. And these pictures are being taken. We’re about to update the website. And I’ve actively been making sure that I rest but that we rev up as the beginning of the fourth quarter is actually you know, the firt, one of the months has already gotten. So in the fourth quarter, keeping up the momentum as we in the second year of shallow blow. And you’re ready for all of our big stuff for the podcast. I’m tightening up the details behind the scenes.

Unknown Speaker 1:47
I love that. Yeah, partnership power is one of the five skills of self care that we talk about in my book, still points. And we were talking about that this week when I was teaching class and I teach a weekly class on radical self and community care. And we were talking about the intentional creation of partnership power that we don’t have to do all this by ourselves. And I love that you brought that up Shannon, because you know, it is one of my favorite self care, self care, self care skills. Let me see if I can talk today. And it is I love it because I like to do things with other people. And so it’s super fun. Like it is it is a great way to do it. Yeah. So thanks for naming that.

Shannon M. 2:35
Yeah, of course. And I love it because I’m actually right in the middle of introvert and extrovert. So we have an MB of her. Yeah, the ambivert. So me having partnership power gives me that energy from being around amazing people and working with people that are aligned, right. But because it’s efficient, it also helps give me more time to myself. And I need that. So yeah.

Unknown Speaker 2:59
Right. It’s a really beautiful balance. I mean, I know, you know, one of the reasons we originally talked about this project together is because we’ve heard all the, you know, we’ve heard all the negative stuff about women working together, right that women are hard to work with. There’s a lot of stereotypes about women working together. And you and I don’t really believe those right? We believe in lifting each other up. And that it is easier together. And that when you surround yourself by amazing people and amazing women, especially like you can get more stuff done. Or you can get less stuff done if your goal is to like really take good care of yourself. But doing it in community is important. Yeah.

Shannon M. 3:41
And let’s I want to because we always do this, we start talking about it before we tell them what we’re talking about. But what are we talking about today station, so we always want to hop right in. But yeah, I’ll give the definition and then I have something to say to what you guys want to hear reminded me of. Okay, lady. So today we are talking about occupational wellness. And that represents the feeling of purpose and productivity. And once chosen profession. This pillar is certainly a key element to what we refer to as work life balance as an enriched and productive professional life. It’s certainly required to mesh with that healthy personal life. Yeah, I love it. So what you were talking about women working together and the stereotypes and what people think about it, I learned the difference when I was an RA on campus at Kennesaw State, and they would say you shouldn’t live with your best friends. Right? But what I really realized is that people who are friends with each other get in arguments because you think that you know this person until you live with them. And then they use the last of the tissue and don’t tell anybody and now it’s a fight when you should have treated it in that moment. Like you didn’t know this person and had your own toilet paper in your own milk in the refrigerator or Whatever you need to split, to keep keep the territory amicable and still be able to have the friendship without crossing those lines. But that’s bound healthy boundaries. Yeah. And intentional conversations, right? Because that’s another thing. What’s feedback, everybody wants to be great, oh, you’re great. We’re having a great time. Everything is great. But sometimes it’s not sometimes, hey, I need you to stop calling me sharing my name is Shannon. Right? They might say, Oh, my goodness, I didn’t even know thank you for letting me know, you know, being able to have that those conversations at work. So that you know, what is expected of your partner what they need from you, so that you can work well together and genuinely, genuinely, have the strengths overlap with the weaknesses, you have to be able to share with each other. And that’s what sets everybody being on the same page, and then operating from a place of understanding.

Unknown Speaker 6:00
I completely agree with you. And I, you know, when I think about this, and I think we talked about it a couple episodes back. But when we talk about really good skills of conflict management, and we talk about self care skills, like combining those, like are really a good thing, because, you know, we talked about in Stillpoint, we talked about the five skills of self care, you know, one of the first ones is sorting and separating, sorting, and separate what’s mine and what’s yours. And that’s the same thing that could be applied to that example, no matter who you’re living with, or working with, and I can’t wait to see what our guest today has to say about this topic. I think it’s gonna be really good when we talk about our jobs and occupational wellness, right? Because conflict does arise. And and, yeah, it’s a big one. You

Shannon M. 6:46
do? Yeah. I’ve had some difficult conversations. And it makes it easier to have the conversation next time. Again, you teach people how to treat us. So I’m all about having the difficult conversation and a professional and a respectful way. And it’s easy for me, especially again, like we said, what are the stereotypes about women, they’re going to try to tell you you’re tired, that you’re not being logical, oh, my, they’re going to try to bait you, right? So I always tie it back to the policy, because this is what xy and z asked us to do when you need it this way. We want to work well together. This is what I and I can make sure I can work on whatever you need from me on my part. But we’ve got to have those conversations. And yeah, I love talking about occupational wellness.

Unknown Speaker 7:32
Right? Well, let’s remind before we put pull our guests up here, because I’m very excited to talk to her today. Before we do that, let’s remind folks what we do Shannon, because we may have some new listeners that don’t know about the work we do in the world. So you want to go first and tell them what we do.

Shannon M. 7:48
Absolutely. So again, I am the owner of shallow glow LLC. So I have a beautiful company that has sugar, scrubs, multi-use oil and a glow butter, we have a new Glow Kit. That’s what I was talking about at the beginning. So if you shave wax, or if you have skin, we should be exfoliating and taking care of our body in an intentional way. Right. So I do that with shallow glow. I have a wonderful international podcast with Christine Gautreaux called when may connect it in wisdom, right that you’re listening to right now. And I also just recently accepted a position at Top Golf. So I am a team lead, and have been having a great time leading this huge business. And you know, re staffing and getting back to normal operating procedures at work, even though the world isn’t back to normal operating procedures. And so that’s when been really interesting and fun. And I’ve been having a good time doing all of it and trying to figure out how to do it in a balanced or, you know, wise way. Yes.

Unknown Speaker 8:51
I love that. Yeah. How do we do it? All right, that’s part of these conversations and take care of ourselves in our communities at the same time. Yeah, well, y’all I’m Christine Gautreaux. I am the owner of Christine Gautreaux, LLC, consulting, consulting LLC. Let me put those in the right order, right. So I am an author, speaker, a coach, I do consulting for businesses, and nonprofits for self and community care, like how do we take really good care of ourselves in order to sustain the work and when I talk about the work, I work with a lot of activist and artist and healers and social workers and healing professionals. And you know, caregiving is a dangerous profession. The statistics show us that oftentimes caregivers die before the people that they’re taking care of, because they’re so busy taking care of them, that they don’t take care of themselves, and especially for women of color who are doing activism work in their communities. The statistics are incredibly disconcerting about how their lifespan is shortening, because they’re so busy taking care of other people. and holding their communities together, that it’s impacting their own health. So it’s really my mission to get the word out about self care in order to sustain community care, because we got to do this together, y’all. And so that’s what I do. And I do some private coaching and I do a lot of community work. And I’m just and I have this awesome podcast with my friend Shannon, that we get to talk to incredible guests like we’re about to introduce in just a minute. So you ready my friends? Should I introduce? Alright, let me pull up her bio, so I make sure I get it all correct. And for our listeners today, I’m working remote remotely as we talk about occupational wellness. So I am, I’m not on my home system. But here we go. Dr. Witchita l small is the founder and CEO of capital conscious U LLC, a leadership development firm focused on helping career and entrepreneur women find and align their purpose with their careers and business. Over the past 15 years as a human resource leader and executive, Dr. Small has helped international organizations design and implement strategies to attract, develop and retain top talent using platforms such as her blog, living, learning, leading, and her podcast leading with purpose. Dr. Small provides insight into the real life experiences of women of color in the workforce and coaches and teach us strategies and best practices to position women of color for success. Dr. Small is the author of our leadership journey, shared stories, lessons and advice for women of color, a book for women of color on the rise into positions of leadership and influence. We want to welcome to our stage today. Dr. Small, welcome. Yes, we can hear you Hello. No worries.

Unknown Speaker 12:01
Can you hear me now?

Unknown Speaker 12:02
Oh, yes. Much better. My clear. You are welcome.

Unknown Speaker 12:07
Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited

Unknown Speaker 12:11
that you’re here with us today.

Shannon M. 12:14
Yes, this conversation has been what literally over a year in the making. Right. Really,

Unknown Speaker 12:19
really has I think you did. 2020? Yes. When we first connected Yeah. So very long time. So I’m happy we we finally get to we get to have a conversation.

Unknown Speaker 12:31
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Shannon M. 12:34
I want to go ahead and jump right in. Why do you tell all of your your wealth of knowledge in this area, I love that you have became in resource background, when I think about human resources is like the people that make sure somebody is held accountable. But if I think about accountability in the United States, human resources, so would you mind telling us about who you are, what you do, and how you stay mindful when it comes to occupational wellness?

Unknown Speaker 13:04
Sure. So I, I’ve been in human resources, literally my entire career, even pre undergraduate, started as a volunteer than an intern didn’t know I peep. It’s crazy. Because I say I’d love human resources. Most people just like how does anyone loves to do human resources? I think for me, it is the connection with people. Um, it is it it keeps my brain going. Because there is never a dull moment because you’re dealing with so many different personalities. Every single day. And I loved I’d love to learn about people observe them just more so so that I can help them be better people. But I’ve been doing it for for a very long time. Don’t let the ring light fool you. It gives it gives me a nice glow. But I’ve been in HR for about 20 years now. I’ve been in human resources. And my just from a background, my educational background is a traditional business background. I just happen to do a lot of my practical work and human resources. And I got my PhD in human capital management, which I generally like to describe. It’s kind of like the next level of human resources, it really is kind of like the economics of people and the value that they have and bring to organizations and that reciprocal relationships in terms of relate organizations investing in the value that the employee has to both to both help the organization as well as to help to help the employee as well. Um, I don’t know what did you do you want to know a little bit more about me, I can go

Unknown Speaker 14:59
do it. I want to have a question. I have a question. Just even saying that Dr. Small, um, is that where like your idea from your book came from and helping women find their purpose? Like, in their leadership? Yeah. So

Unknown Speaker 15:13
it was a combination of that and some other things. So as it relates to the book, I did my research, my dissertation research on the self limiting factors that prevent leadership emergence in women of color. So when you think about all of the external factors, right, you think about some of the just society organizations in terms of just not necessarily being the friendliest to women of color, right? You have all of these external factors that don’t allow for us to take those steps up. But there are opportunities or situations where everything is right. Everything is right for us. We it’s the right environment, we have the mentors, we have the sponsors, we have the advocates, we’re presented with an opportunity, and we’re just like, Nah, I’ll pass. And I wanted to know, when all of these other things are against us. And we finally have that opportunity where everything is working in our favor, it’s right for us. Why do we say no. So a lot of really great themes came out of that, you know, fear is one of the major themes, but you know, the the multiple roles that women of color, have mother, sister, daughter, um, the idea of family over so culturally, we’re always taught that our family is the most important thing. And we have to put our family above everything, failing to realize that we’re part of our own family, too. And we have to, we have to include ourselves in that as well. So that was the, I’ll say, the foundation for the book. The other piece of it was when I thought about my own experience, and what I had gone through as I was kind of, you know, trying to climb the corporate ladder, and navigate the terrains, and most most organizations, most corporate organizations are predominantly white institutions. And what that experience for me as a black woman was, it was what what can I tell people for a very long time, when I think about my role, there’s a lot that I can’t tell people as human resources, it’s kind of like, I can’t tell you that secret because it could be confidential, it could put me in a compromising situation. So there was a lot of things I could not say, when I had some of these women of color, come into my office, sometimes I wanted to just be like, Girl, this is what you need to do. I couldn’t exactly do that, considering my role. So this was that opportunity for me to share my knowledge, shared experiences, I have had the blessing of being able to be connected with some amazing executive women of color who have mentored me who have poured into me and it’s kind of like they freely gave to me, it’s like paying it forward. I’m freely giving it to you, whatever it is, that I know that I’ve learned, that I think will be helpful for you to learn as you are kind of working your way through. Here it is it’s it’s not the the full gamut, if you will, but this is as much as I had in the moment. And I shared it all as well as some of the stories from the women that I interviewed in my research. And just kind of like what their experiences are what they learned what they wish they would have known as they were going kind of like through their own journey.

Unknown Speaker 18:28
Oh, I love that Shannon, Do you own this book yet?

Shannon M. 18:31
No, I would like a signed copy of it. Right?

Unknown Speaker 18:34
We got it. We got to get to this for sure. I love it. It sounds like every woman of color needs this book if they’re working in corporate America. Is it just corporate America Dr. Smaller? Does it go across all all different work? situations?

Unknown Speaker 18:50
It really is just all different work situations. It’s corporate America, is this encompassing term? sure that that’s for the the just out quote unquote, American institution of work, which as I mentioned, the vast majority of them are predominantly white institution. So that’s just an income encompassing term corporate America. Corporate America is when you work for someone else and not yourself.

Shannon M. 19:16
Right. Oh,

Unknown Speaker 19:19
I’m also curious if it would apply to women working for themselves. Because what I mean when you say the words like fear and use, I mean, I think that goes across so many different scenarios and self sabotage that women often do. Yes, for women of color, but speaking as a white woman also for a lot of the women I work with and white women like, well, we can sabotage ourselves like nobody’s business, right? Oh,

Unknown Speaker 19:45
absolutely. It’s an because there’s when I think about the the foundation of, of the book, again, it’s rooted in my research and while focused on women of color As women across the board, we face a lot of these issues. A good portion of that, in the beginning of the book I talk about like just kind of like the self and self reflection, how do you feel about yourself, and the fact that how you feel about yourself is often projected onto other people, kind of what’s your upbringing, that kind of that helps you understand how you perceive and understand the environments that you’re in. So particular for me, I grew up in a household that was dominated by women, I have always been told that respect is the utmost even, like, you know, you respect your elders, but at the same time, your elders aren’t supposed to disrespect you. And you know, I’ve always been taught never let anyone disrespect me, you are a human being, you have rights, you deserve to be treated a certain way. So every space that I went into, in some ways there was that conflict, because it’s kind of like, I don’t care who you are, you’re not going to disrespect me, my Mama, don’t talk to me like this. So I’m not going to allow you to talk to me like that. I have always been very strong black women have always been taught to command my respect, I walk in a room and I have a presence that I’m not I’m not yelling at you, I’m not screaming at you, you being intimidated, by me is very different than me intimidating you, that has everything to do with you, and how you feel about yourself, and nothing to do with me. And it took a while to kind of like not internalize those things, and really be able to be confident and standing firm in it. But those things, those things matter when you walk in and you start to think how does this even make sense? It doesn’t make sense to you, because that’s not how you were raised. That’s not the environment that you were brought up in. That’s not what you were taught in terms of what in my mind what leadership look like, because my my family is led by women. So for me to not see someone look like me, or to just have to be beholden to, you know, male dominance, they’re just kind of like, this isn’t working for me.

Unknown Speaker 21:58
Right? And especially when a lot of times it’s a mediocre white male, because they’ve had all the privileges and then yeah, absolutely. So then that’s there’s that whole conflict but I want to say what you’re saying is so on point and I was about especially the intimidation factor, and I think being aware and talking about it as women also I was in a situation not too long ago that I was out with a friend and amazing human being and we were out getting some street tacos and outside and this guy came up and starts talking to us and we started talking about poetry and art and and he found out I was an author and a published and all this and he like got out of there like really quick and my friend turned to me and she said you intimidated him and I took a deep breath and said no, he may have been intimidated by me. But I did not intimidate him. Me showing up in my full self. Yeah, that’s who and but it was a moment because of even languaging she was like and I was like let’s stop that way. And she’s like Oh, you’re so right but it’s so ingrained in us right I especially like in in my culture as far as like oh you know you don’t you play a little bit smaller so the man feels bigger and it’s like well, we need to be done with that

Unknown Speaker 23:20
was like the time nice situation where a man made reference to women it’s like yeah, they think should we should be a lot nicer. I was like, please explain that to me. Sir. What do you what do you mean by nice? And I one point I was told my supervisor that he was informed that I should be coached I’m being nice. I was like, how exactly am I am I not being nice? Because I don’t let you get away with Bs. I just don’t sit there and yes, you to death. I talked to you straightforward. Like Facts are facts. You can dispute facts. If you don’t like the truth, that’s your business. But the truth is, the truth is like, I’m one of the nicest people you can ever meet. But just because I’m not smiling your face and saying yes to things that I don’t agree with. Doesn’t mean that I’m not a nice person. And so just that that intimidation and the women should be nicer.

Unknown Speaker 24:11
There’s that billboard y’all. I can’t remember which one that really tall billboard when you’re going through downtown Atlanta that says Just be nice or be nice. gets to me every time because I’m like, I also am a big believer like, you know, race in the South. Like we’re taught to be nice and not saying anything, even when it’s to our detriment. I’m like, I want to get away with that. Let’s be kind to each other. I believe kindness is hugely important. But you can hold your boundaries just like you were saying actually say the truth and be kind like but we don’t have to smile while we do it. That’s not unkind. We don’t have to like play up to your ego. I love that. I’ll be quiet channeling you get a word in edgewise. Sorry, I’m so excited about this topic.

Shannon M. 24:52
No, I love it. I’ve had so many ideas. I’m on like the fifth idea at this point. But it’s so important and especially when When I realized how people would treat you different based on the level that they think you’re at, right, and I really watched it at papito, it was crazy. If I would walk up to somebody in a server uniform, they would treat me one way, right? If I had on the white chef coat, which is usually, let’s say, the majority of a team in that restaurant, if you have a white chef coat, the majority of the line probably has a white chef coat, right? So now, people almost don’t even see your face. Even the team that I worked with the servers who I had managed, when I went to the kitchen manager training, they didn’t even say, hey, because they didn’t see me because they didn’t take the time to look at my face. But now if I have on my black chef coat with my name written on it, now everybody pauses and takes a little more time, and it’s a certain air of authority. But I’m still the same person, you know, and it’s a flip it when COVID Shut the restaurant down, and I decided not to go back. Now I had to realize, as a business owner, you have to be the raving fan of your product, right, your skin is still dry. While you’re when you wake up, well, I got Shea low blow was going to be great. It does. And that’s the exact opposite of what they tell us to do about our accomplishments, or the things that we’re good at or that we’ve achieved. And so it’s interesting the different skills that it takes to hold different positions, and how you have to be mindful of that, and good at it to succeed, but still balance, knowing what the expectations of other people are around you and how to mitigate that. So now we can actually work together. And if we’re really trying to be excellent, how do we have synergy and collaboration, and all of these other things that would be in a utopia of a work environment.

Unknown Speaker 26:44
And those are really very important points. And what I want to say is that, that is the responsibility of the organization, the organization has to create an environment that, uh, that if it doesn’t happen naturally, that they encourage that to happen. And I have, I have definitely, it’s the little the difference for me, when I think about my role, because I’ve observed all of those things, I think my role has been a little bit different, because I’ve always been in human resources and human resources, like the scary, like, it doesn’t matter where in human what level of human resources you work in, if you’re in human resources, there’s just a certain, okay, I have to act a certain way. Because, you know, I want to make sure that I, I keep my job. But one thing that when you think about just kind of like occupational health and occupational wellness, it’s creating an environment where everyone can thrive. And if you have this even the thought process of better than because you can have an hierarchical organization, and most organizations are hierarchical, as relates to roles and decision making and autonomy. But what that starts to translate into is because I have more decision making power, or more autonomy in my role than you do, then I am somehow better than you are or more important than you are. But it’s kind of like Sir, you fail to realize that if you your office isn’t clean, you can’t come in and have your your meetings, they make sure your office is clean, and that you look good, and that there’s everything that you need for you to be successful. If you didn’t have these other people that are supporting you, that are really holding up the organization, this organization would crumble. And I think that’s, that’s a societal thing. It’s just kind of like ingrained and just the organizational structure. And unfortunately, it’s it’s difficult to get away from but that’s where having effective leadership comes in and understanding. You know, what, what that means for the organization for the people of the organization. You know, I’ve worked with many great people who it doesn’t matter if it’s the CEO, or the janitor, say good morning, because just be polite. And say good morning, just because this person runs the organization and this person cleans the organization doesn’t mean he’s better and deserves, he deserves more respect than this person. Say good morning to everyone. Ask everyone how they’re doing. Make sure everyone has all of the resources that they need, there might be some prioritization. But again, still make sure that everyone has and that isn’t always the case. And I think, from my experience, it has a lot to do with one, the leadership of the organization and to the difficulty and votes, not being able to kind of move with the change and understand, you know, people say politically correct or not politically correct, how about just being a decent human being and treating everyone with respect?

Unknown Speaker 30:17
I so I agree with you Dr. Small and what you said earlier about creating an environment where everyone can thrive, like that. And that really resonated with me as a solopreneur. And we have a lot of our listeners are entrepreneurs and solopreneurs. And working in corporate, you know, we’ve got the whole gamut. But I even thought about that, when you said it out loud for myself create an environment with YouTube, because like when you said that about family and US forgiving is like, oh, yeah, cuz that goes right along with my work with the self care. Um, I wanted to circle back and ask you this question. Because you said that oftentimes, you couldn’t tell women and especially women of color, what they needed to do. So what are like your top girl, this is what you need to do. When you are, I mean, pick it pick what what people want to know, the most, like from your book, and from your research. It may be like how to get a raise, like, what, what do they need to do? Or?

Unknown Speaker 31:14
So I mean, so those kinds of things i i can write. So when I talk about the things like some of the things that I can’t talk about, I can’t outright say things like, I don’t know, well, maybe you need to write everything down. Right? So sometimes I’ll be say things like, it’s very important for you to take notes, so that you have a record of everything, but just kind of like No, make sure you write down all of the nonsense, right? You supervisor is saying and keep a record, because what they’re doing is wrong,

Unknown Speaker 31:46
right? Girl, I tell my coaching clients that all the time, especially the day going on, right? Absolutely, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker 31:52
There’s a challenge with my role, because I represent both the organization and the interests of the employee. So there really is this constant conflict that I have to go through. And again, having experienced a lot of things as women of color. And when I’ve had them come into my office, it’s just kind of like, yeah, I went through that too, with my boss. And this was what the situation was. And here’s how I handled it. Because I, in the back of my mind, I have to say, Okay, is there is there a potential liability here? What’s my role in helping this individual but also mitigating the liability for my organization? So as it relates to as it relates to the book, it’s not that technical, but it’s just kind of like understanding your environment? Like, take, take, take a scope of it? What’s happening? Is it the supportive environment, here are the things that you need to really look for? If it’s not a supportive environment? What are the things you need to look for in yourself, we’re all human beings. And it’s very easy to blame someone else for all of your issues. Sometimes it’s kind of like, well, maybe I actually do have an issue. There’s this concept called stereotype threat, right? And it is the threat of falling into the trap of the stereotype. So the stereotype says that I’m an angry black woman, and here, these folks are aggravating me, and it’s just kind of like, oh, okay, so they want to see an angry black woman, I’m going to give them an angry black woman, and then I then become what they have already thought me to be. And that’s one it, it can be so much for women of color, that it’s very easy to fall into that trap. So not falling into those kinds of not falling into those types of tracks, just doing an environmental scan, being self being self aware. Also understanding the value that you have, and not allowing that value to be diminished by anyone. Also, if it’s not working for you, get out, but be smart about getting out. So all of just all of those things like that is what’s really what’s really in the book, just how to really understand yourself, be yourself and not not allow your environment to change who you are. How do you thrive in the spaces that are right for you, but also being able to identify the spaces that are not right for you, and not trying to conform to fit into a space that clearly was not made for you?

Unknown Speaker 34:31
Hmm, I love that. Shannon, you came off. I’m gonna let you go first. But I have a question. I want to circle back around to but you go first. Okay.

Shannon M. 34:39
Yeah. And I think all of that is so important. You know, I was talking to my friend earlier and I was laughing about how he and that that I thought it would be easy in a naive way. I wasn’t thinking about the difficulty level. When I started the business. I just said, I’ll start the business and I just started a business and it’s all of these things that you should consider. And I think that’s what work is like, you know, we talked about go into school to get a job. And we don’t talk about, what about the eight dimensions in that job, how they’re going to affect you in your life and how to have work life balance, and even have boundaries with the time that you allow work to take out of your 168 hours a week. And how are you specifically using the time when you’re not at work for yourself, because then we get over extended, we’re doing all this stuff at work, I’m asking ladies at work. And they say they work for themselves. That is not self care. It is You of course, taking care of your financial wellness and making sure we’re doing what we need to do. But I love that you come from an educated background on the human capital management, and specifically the numbers and how it affects the business. And that’s the reality of it, we need to be making money to stay open to have a staff who can then support their families. But we also have a responsibility to make sure that it’s done in a healthy way, or it has all of these huge ripple effects. And we know that side effects for black women are usually not the main focal point of the shareholders that have been historically, you know, so really, learning how to do that for yourself. And the environment, I think is huge for black women to make sure that we can, you know, spend money and and be able to have a choice and a say so as women in a community and as part of the family, but also for our peace of mind, because they’ll make you crazy and call you crazy in the same sentence is what one of my friends from from college said. And I really feel like that way, in certain situations at work, things are set a certain way. And situations are let slide. And if you do not hold it for yourself, and know what you need and what you’re going to accept, then it could be very detrimental to the the mental and emotional wellness and everything else too. So I love the work that you’re doing. Absolutely. Yeah, the question

Unknown Speaker 36:54
I wanted to ask because I do a lot of I do a lot of racial equity work. And you know, it’s been a big conversation on LinkedIn, it’s been a big conversation this last year, especially, you know, companies are starting, you know, not that everybody’s doing a good job, but they’re starting to have these discussions at least. And so my question would be as a white woman, what can we do as allies or accomplices to help our sisters of color in the work environment? I have some ideas on it. But I wanted to hear yours for sure.

Unknown Speaker 37:26
I think at the root of it, it has to be you have to have a genuine desire to affect change. Because a lot of what’s happening is I think the term now uses performative it’s like it’s the it looks good. But it really is. It’s putting yourself on the line for me. That’s what it really looks like when someone is making a racist remark to me, you’re saying to them, you’re being racist, stop being racist, you see that a policy is a bias policy, you talk to HR, you talk to the CEO, you talk to whoever it is, and say this policy is biased or racist, or treatment is unfair. If you see that you and I have the same skill set, and you’re making $20,000 more than me, you’re going to our supervisor and saying, Hey, I think why Judah should be making the same amount of money that I’m making, or John, or whoever it is, and being being more than just a voice. It’s taking the action. Um, which I think is what’s what’s missing is that that action piece because we can all say we want equality, and you know, you can say, hey, you know, you’re my sister, but are you are you really are you actually on the lines with me? You can say, it’s great that you’re going out to protest but are you protesting with me when you’re when they’re pointing that gas gun at me? Are you stuffing in front of me to make sure that you know, I don’t get hurt? It’s it’s those types of things. And I it’s definitely not easy. A lot. Yeah, what people don’t realize. So there’s a a Her name is Dr. Joy to grew, I’m probably mispronouncing her name. And she has a book and it’s it’s post traumatic slave theory. And she talks about the concept of post traumatic stress syndrome and how trauma is passed down through DNA so much more than trauma is passed down through the DNA. And then when you think about what perpetuates all of that in terms of society and all of those, it’s it’s literally in green, that’s what I’d say it’s institutionalized. And, you know, when we talk about being human and loving each other and Bell Hooks book about love. She’s talks about its action. So you it’s, it’s wanting the best for people, I can love you. Because I want the best for you, I have nothing but good intentions for you. Um, it really is taking that to the level of action. And, and doing our, if it’s in my best interest for you to give something of yours to me. That’s that action you give it to me. But most folks is kind of like, well, no, I don’t, I don’t want to make less money. So this person can make more or

Unknown Speaker 40:40
hard right and that thing. And I think our systems that we still have done do like perpetuated. I have an example where somebody called and asked me to be on the nonprofit board. And I said, you don’t need another white woman on your board. You You need a person of color on your board and do did it today. And they’re like, oh, my gosh, you’re so right. And they did that. But months down the road. I spoke up about an issue and they said, Well, you’re not on the board. I said, No, no, we’re not. We’re not playing in that. Like, it’s so interesting, like the power structures and the way that things happen. And it’s like, nope, sometimes we get punished for doing the right thing or stepping back. And it’s like, it’s still the right thing to do and do it and then speak up when the system needs to change to to make it to where everybody has access. So thank you for that. I appreciate I appreciate that so much.

Unknown Speaker 41:33
When you you mentioned the power structure, it’s speaking up against that power structure, even though you know, it may have a negative impact on you.

Unknown Speaker 41:40
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I mean, yeah, and it still needs to be done. And that’s that I agree with you about not being performative that that is the way we’re going to make change, and that it can be scary, and it but it still needs to happen. So thank you for speaking to that. Yeah.

Shannon M. 41:59
So I have another question, because I love how you focus on leadership development, right? How do you advise women move forward consistently? If there isn’t development? That’s something that I’ve seen, oh, you know, people talk about the level of service, let’s say, for example, on servers, I honestly don’t think that it’s all the server’s fault. I think that a lot of these restaurants don’t have adequate training programs. Right. So what does that look like? But if you’re that person that needs to feed her family of however many she might, and of course, like you said, environmental scanning, she might need to stay there. So as you’re moving up, but you’re not getting things that you need on certain places, what advice do you give to those women? A couple

Unknown Speaker 42:42
of things, my general I, I am just a firm believer, and this is just where I’ve gotten to having worked in lived some sort of life, that you should not do something for the sake of doing something. That being said, there are people who have to do because they need, I am also a proponent of making smart decisions. And maybe that’s just because I’m a risk averse person, I believe in having a job before you leave. One. That being said, I also understand that when your health is impacted in any space, if your health is impacted negatively in any space, you need to work your way out of that space. Um, so when I think about advice, I think the first thing is to one do the environmental scan. Like what is this environment? Like? Is it conducive to the growth that you are looking for yourself? Do you have the support that you need, I would also advise on some really deep self reflection, because a lot of us say I don’t want this but you actually don’t know what you want. And I think you need to understand exactly what it is that you want. And that goes into kind of like the purpose piece that I do. I would like to talk about, I think in any environment, work environment that you are in, you should have a mentor, someone that you can talk to someone that can kind of help you navigate the space that you’re in, in particular someone that has had that experience, because without someone that you can either talk to or that can advocate for you, you’re going to be completely lost and it doesn’t matter what level what type of organization, people need people we cannot do this alone. One thing that I talk about in the book is having like support systems. And one thing that we definitely need to get better at as women of color is supporting each other in every sense of way but actually having support because we cannot do it alone with out those things. And it’s very rare that you don’t have at least one of those things in the organ. And again, regardless of the organization that you are in, but when you are thinking about leaving, the very first thing is to know where you want to go. Because at the end of the day, if you leave because you don’t like it, but you don’t know what you want, you’re just going to another place that you want to leave, you’re going to another place that you eventually is not going to, you’re not going to like that’s not going to be the right space for you, that’s not going to help you develop and get to the level that you want to get to. Because you haven’t taken the time to think about what it is that you want to do and where you want to go and focus your journey on achieving those things.

Shannon M. 45:42
Yeah, I 100% agree with that. And even in the meantime, even if it is a great job that you do, you know, there’s still a lot going on. So I know a lot of people feel bad for calling out, I don’t want to be that type of person. That’s not the same thing. You know, that is not the same thing as not saying you’re not a great teammate, and that your scores are going to get off in any type of way. But when stuff happens, if you’re not okay, we should be allowed to rest as we were, and continue on with our journey. So I appreciate your perspective. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker 46:14
Absolutely. And I’m a firm believer of employees knowing their rights. And knowing what should and should not happen and what they’re allowed to do what they’re not allowed to do. I am an avid user of mental health days, because if someone is working minor, because that’s the thing, if you cannot show up fully for yourself in any given moment, you can’t show up for anybody else at all. So if I’m having a bad day, and I go to work, I’m not going to be as productive. I’m probably going to be projecting all of what I was feeling on to the people that I work with that work for me, they’re not going to be productive. It doesn’t help anyone if you are not at your best, and you’re trying to go someplace to tell people they need to do better. Right.

Unknown Speaker 47:01
Thank you for that. Yeah. And oh, go ahead.

Shannon M. 47:05
Yes, because I was watching this Netflix show. And I’ve really been thinking about this, the move to automation on the work line and in the workforce. Right? What Where do you see that? Positioning women? And is there anything that we can do to prepare ourselves as a workforce and our future?

Unknown Speaker 47:25
Um, the first thing I would say is, well, one, we need more women in tech, to build out all of these automated processes, because at the end of the day, you need the humans to build these things that are taking over human jobs. I think a lot of times, we tend to get really comfortable with the way things are, and not realize how rapid change can happen. I think everyone on some level should understand technology, even if it’s at the level to interact with it with my limited knowledge as it relates to automation. I am not sure I would say women have to worry, only because research has shown that women are going to be dominating the workforce. I think the last one I read was like 2024 2034, don’t quote me, it’s in one of my papers somewhere. But women are going to be dominating the workforce. Along the same lines, people of color, so there’s going to be more people of color. And they’re going to be more women. And by default, they’re going to be more women of color in the workforce over the next couple of years. I think we need to be smart about where we’re going and the industries and where our focus our focus is. And I’m a firm believer in doing the things that you love. But I also believe that it’s okay to find ways to integrate what’s happening and what you need into the things that you love to do. And that’s technology, period. Technology is everywhere. So there is no job anywhere in the world that I don’t think shouldn’t have technology integrated into the type of work that they’re doing. And I think that will help us stay current and put us in a better position to make the shift if we need to make a shift.

Unknown Speaker 49:34
Love that. Hey, y’all. This is hot off the presses. So I want to bring it to the podcast since we have a human resource expert. And plus, I just think we need to talk about it before we wrap and then we’re coming darn close. It said this just came across the wire that Democrats dropped the paid family and medical leave from the safety net bill. They’re trying to get consensus on this big bill that they’re moving through. So what they had put in there was paid family and medical leave, and they’re talking about one. Senator Joe Manchin, he’s a Democrat from West Virginia has raised objections to including guaranteed paid leave in the safety net. And then there’s other lawmakers that said they’ll ramp up the efforts to get it back in the bill. But they need support of all the Democratic senators to pass the measure. So it’s we like to bring Dr. Small things that are current to our podcast, because we’ve got to speak up. I mean, to me, this is a huge impact on women, especially when you talk about women being you know, in the how much they’re in the workforce and how much they bring. We need this paid family and medical leave bill to pass and we need it in there. So I’m just bringing that up, I want to get your opinion. And I also want to say, y’all call your senators, call your senators and tell them we need this, especially as women like and we’ll put a link in our show notes on how to reach who your senator is and how to reach out by call or, or by an email.

Unknown Speaker 51:04
That’s disappointing. Yeah, that one would even consider taking away paid family leave. I found that with a lot of organizations, and one thing that we’re working through in my current organization is, while we have a generous leave, it should be more generous than it actually than it actually is. You’re going to lose talent that way. If you do not allow people to exercise the right to take care of their family, they’re not going to see you as worth their time as worth their value. Because when you think about going into an organization, it’s a mutually beneficial relationship they’re giving to you you’re giving to them, if you’re giving more than they’re giving to you, it’s not going to be worth it, you’re going any organization that does not have a paid family leave, that doesn’t have paid parental leave, you are going to lose talent. And you’re not going to attract talent. And those organizations eventually, maybe not now, but eventually will probably not be in existence. Because if any organization gives a benefit, I’m telling you, that’s the benefit people want. That’s to be able to take time not worry about not being able to pay a bill because their paycheck is short, because they have a sick kid or a sick parent, or they even have to take care of themselves, you should allow if you want us to be there 100% When we’re there, let us take the time that we need to handle our business so that we can come refresh without a worry over here. And we can show up and produce at the level that you need us to in in a lot of cases far beyond what’s expected.

Unknown Speaker 53:04
Oh, isn’t that the truth? Thank you for speaking to that. Y’all, I am just paying to insert our time. And I know we could probably talk another hour because this is such a good conversation. Shannon, you want to lead us in our hashtag.

Shannon M. 53:20
So yes, so every week based on the category of wellness, we pick a hashtag hashtag wisdom and action like you do. Like you were saying, love it so much that you’re actually going to put some action behind it. So my wisdom and action for occupational wellness this week, is to follow up with my higher ups with the feedback that I want to give them for this week. I do that every week, and possible opportunities that they have presented me and writing it down. I know that’s a lot. But those are my actions that I’m doing to make sure that my occupation I guess there’s just one of them stays smooth and in a place where I feel like it should be. What about you agita? What is your wisdom and action. When you think about occupational wellness for the next seven days.

Unknown Speaker 54:10
Remember that you’re a part of the team to especially as a leader, I learned that with the passing of my grandmother and needing to take time away. We tend to always worry about what’s going to happen. What about my team, but you’re a part of the team and you need to take care of yourself too. And it’s okay as a leader to put yourself first because in doing so, it’s only going to make you be in a better position to show up fully and wholly for the people that you lead.

Unknown Speaker 54:42
That is so true and so good. Well, y’all my wisdom and action this week is going to be to reach out to my legislatures to assert that I want this family and medical leave back in this bill that they’re trying to get through and I am actually on vacation. This was my last. I wasn’t I was gonna be here because I love being here with Shannon having these conversations. So my actual wisdom and action for occupational is I am going to disconnect and take some time that I am off. And so I’m really going to be off. So once I get this produced and put up, I will I will be out of pocket for a couple of days. So. So that’s gonna be my wisdom and action. But Dr. Small thank you so much for being here with us today and having this conversation. So grateful to you and the work we’ve been doing the world. We are going to put the link to your book on our show notes so our listeners can find you. Is there anything else that you want us to include? About how to find you or other offerings you have?

Unknown Speaker 55:50
Sure. So you can visit my website first name and last name.com? Would you small.com And the website to the book is what do you do small.com/book. I am on Instagram. And that’s usually the platform that I use most. So it’s at Dr. Dr. W. I’m sorry, at Dr. Underscore W L small so folks can connect with me there. And then the leading with purpose podcast is also on my website and on all the podcast platforms. So what’s led you to small.com/podcast and Spotify, Apple all of those wonderful places for the leading with purpose podcasts.

Unknown Speaker 56:27
We will put that in our show notes so our listeners can come be your listeners because I can tell already. It’s gonna be awesome.

Unknown Speaker 56:34
Thank you for having me. I am so excited to have been a part of this conversation and don’t

Shannon M. 56:38
forget, be well be wise

Unknown Speaker 56:42
and the whole and we’ll see you next week. Thanks shell.

Unknown Speaker 56:46
Thank you

Unknown Speaker 56:51
Thanks for listening. This has been the women connected and wisdom podcast on air live on Wednesdays at 5pm. Eastern via Facebook and YouTube. Be sure to like share and subscribe be part of the conversation and get connected at women connected in wisdom.com.