Show notes –
Join Shannon & Christine as they chat about intellectual wellness with their special guest Michelle Manning.
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Statistics mentioned in today’s show: https://www.zippia.com/sex-therapist-jobs/demographics/
Everything you need to know about orgasms https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/232318
#makerarevisable – Rare Strides – https://rarestrides.com/
Find a therapists: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists
You can find our guest Michelle Manning & learn more about her books at michellelmanning.com
And contact her via email at contactmlmanning@gmail.com
Show Transcript –
NOTE: While it’s not perfect, we offer this transcription by Otter.ai for those who are hearing impaired or who don’t find listening to a podcast enjoyable or possible.
Shannon M. 0:08
Let’s do this. Okay ladies, welcome to our podcast. I am Shannon Mitchell, a black female, millennial entrepreneur, the founder of Shiloh glow, a handmade shea butter company. I am a champion for your self care, business care and intentional wellness.
Christine Gautreaux 0:25
And I am Christine Gautreaux, a white social justice advocate and international speaker, coach and published author who helps you upgrade yourself and community care.
Shannon M. 0:35
Yes. And together, we are women connected in wisdom, a podcast grounded in the eight dimensions of wellness. Welcome, welcome to our show.
Christine Gautreaux 0:44
And we like to get together every week to have intentional conversations about how to be well in business and life. And, you know, really just how do we do this thing. And today, I’m so excited, we’ve been getting a little traction over on LinkedIn because of the title that went Oh.
Intellectual you want to give us the definition of intellectual wellness?
Shannon M. 1:22
Absolutely, absolutely. So intellectual wellness includes having access to different sources of information, and developing critical thinking and timely decision making skills. Also continual learning through intentional intellectual growth situations, and artistic creativity can help maintain one’s intellectual capacity.
Christine Gautreaux 1:44
So always learning and growing. Yes.
Shannon M. 1:47
And it’s interesting, because I realized when I was a property manager for the first time, between the floor, take care of the guests, and then the kitchen managers, there’s a hierarchy there, right difference in responsibility, different things that we take care of, for the flow of business. And I’ve realized that sometimes the higher up we get, the less we feel like we have to learn things, you know, and that’s in life in general, parents and children, we see the dynamic of things. But you’re genuinely always a student, and always a teacher. And that’s why intellectual wellness is one of my favorite categories.
Christine Gautreaux 2:19
I love that because I also, you know, there’s always new information coming out that too, yes, always new information. And I have loved in the past three years, as we come to what some people have called a racial reckoning in the United States, I love how more authors black and brown authors, and especially women are getting their message and their words out there in a way that they have never been heard before. So they haven’t had access to platforms, and they haven’t had access to, to their voices being heard. I mean, this, this podcast is a great example. Right? That’s one of the reasons we created this podcast, was to uplift women’s voices that often don’t get heard, or to talk about things we don’t often talk about. So, you know, when we a little behind the scenes for our listeners, when we are prepping for shows we do what we call coffee and chats with our potential guests. And what that means is they come on, and we have a 15 minute conversation to find out about them and their work and to decide, okay, when do we want to schedule this? What category do you want to be under? And for anybody that’s been listening more than one or two shows, you know, that a lot of the categories, people could go in different places, because there’s a lot of crossover in the eight dimensions of wellness. So when we were thinking about today’s guest, you know, we were like, do you want to speak to why we put her under intellectual wellness, Shannon,
Shannon M. 3:47
for me, I was thinking about what she talks about. And for me, it’s almost like, money, you know, we were expected to not talk about it, but know how to use it. How does that work?
Christine Gautreaux 4:03
You know what I mean? Like, when
Shannon M. 4:04
are we going to have those conversations? So we know what’s going on? Knowing how to take care of ourselves in different phases of life. Like we talk about what like we’re going to talk about what’s one of our later guests about menopause and different things, you know, but this conversation, I’m excited to talk about this stuff. faking orgasms is the title if you guys have not had an opportunity to see why LinkedIn might be so interested in how this could?
Christine Gautreaux 4:30
Well, you know, in past episodes under intellectual wellness, we’ve often asked these questions which just cracks me up when I think about this topic today. Are you open to new ideas? Do you seek personal growth by learning new skills? Do you search for learning opportunities and stimulating mental activities? And do you look for ways to use creativity? So I do want to think of our listeners to think about those questions as we bring up our guests. Are you ready to bring her up? Shimon,
Shannon M. 5:00
I’m excited. Yes.
Christine Gautreaux 5:01
All right, let’s do this. So Michelle Manning is a mental health provider in private practice. She specializes in sex and sexuality, but does not believe that sex and sexuality requires a specialization, since it affects every person on this planet planet. And I would say a lot of animals to write. In other words, she has very strong opinions. Michelle is the author of two books, crazy and functional, and functional and crazy. And we are delighted to have her with us today. Yes, Michelle Manning. Welcome to women connected with
Michelle Manning 5:35
you, my heroes. I am so excited to be here. And I have goosebumps in your intro music. Come on, what are you supposed to do except dance to it? Okay,
Christine Gautreaux 5:51
how are you today?
Michelle Manning 5:53
I’m so good. I’m so well. Thank you.
Christine Gautreaux 5:56
We are so glad to hear you have you here today and to jump into this topic, like, tell us about being a sex therapist? How did you get into this?
Michelle Manning 6:07
Women? That’s the answer. I got into it because of women. I, I have a lot of explainers that have a tendency to come with me. And so I’m going to try to make this as succinct and concise as possible. So I grew up not really thinking that feminism was necessary. I grew up believing that if you wanted to be a strong woman, you just needed to not take anything. You know, I had role models in my life that kind of prove those points. And I grew up really feeling as if it was just a matter of stick to itiveness and being dug at about what it is that you needed to acquire or pursue. Then I got a clue. And that clue came in my first women’s studies course, which was an elective in college that I had no interest in taking, because who needs a women’s studies course that let them because I thought it was gonna be a great time for me to take a nap. And my mind was blown. And that was an understatement. So I went on this journey, if you want to call it a kind of a self induced journey where I was just going to study as much about women, women’s history issues affecting women as much as I could, because so many of what so many things that I was learning in these electives that I was planning on falling asleep in so much of what I was learning completely blew my mind. And I did not understand not only the truth behind what I was learning, but that it doesn’t affect me, that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t affect people, or even the world. And so I started researching. And the more I researched that the more I recognize, wow, systems systems have been put in place to hold us down isn’t that interesting, and obviously be I’m being very sarcastic. Looking at. But that’s kind of how I transformed I’m thinking this is ridiculous. And I like sticking it to the man. The man doesn’t necessarily affect me directly or so I thought. And then I started realizing, oh, wait a minute, the man does affect me directly. It’s just the contexts were different. Um, I grew up in rodeo, this is kind of just a really short example, I grew up in rodeo. And that’s part of where my disposition came from, and that I was really encouraged and supported and being able to do whatever I want. I happen to be really good in that extreme sport, you know, I grew up so it’s kind of like growing up in the circus, in that it’s just family. That’s just what you do. So I was on a horse that too I am trick riding. If you have any idea what that is. I’m trick riding probably by the time I’m about eight or nine in rodeos and professional rodeos. And I’m thinking, well, who needs feminism because look at me doing everything that I want to do. And then as I became an adult, and I started reflecting back on my life and started kind of looking and trying to determine what about these systems, especially if you want to, you know, kind of refer to it as patriarchy, what about the system’s ever held me down, whatever held me down? And then in that reflection, I realized there was a lot. There were certain sports that I couldn’t participate in. Even though I wanted to, even though I have the athletic ability to do that I couldn’t. Women were not allowed to wear jeans in the arena. Now that may change you know, that may have changed now, but that I love wearing jeans, why can’t I wear jeans in the arena? Girls, women were not allowed to wear jeans in the arena. So there were so many things that were just commonplace that I simply ascribed to and it wasn’t until I was one Shoulder that I realized, oh, okay, I need to really take stock here and try to determine what affected me what didn’t affect me doesn’t make a difference if it didn’t affect me if the systems are really holding so many people down. So in this kind of, you know, independent study, when I really started investing in a lot of women’s history, sex and sexuality just really made a prominent kind of introduction, because it was never there. You know, sex sexuality agency, the only time I ever noticed that those two things were in concert with anything involving women, was when it was used punitive ly some type of punishment, and we can, you know, kind of expand on that. And that’s pretty much it, because pleasure was never a part of it.
Christine Gautreaux 10:55
Right? Well, that was the archetype, right? There’s the two main archetypes that show up for women. And that’s the virgin or the whore. And there’s really no in between. There’s no, there’s not an expanse. Those are the two archetypes that tend to come first and foremost, and they’re still
Michelle Manning 11:11
right, you know, there still isn’t. I think that we like to, I don’t want to say pretend. But I think we like to trust that we are being a bit more comprehensive when it comes to sex, sexuality and women. But we’re not. And I see it in my office, because I think that my office is probably the best litmus test for what’s going on in society. And know, there is still no connection between pleasure sex, sexuality, even sex therapists, you know, don’t know the difference between sex and sexuality, because I will often, you know, reference that distinction. And they will ask me, What’s the difference? And I’m thinking to myself, how could you not know this?
Christine Gautreaux 11:53
Oh, so give us the difference? I want to I have another question that came up for me, but give us the difference for our listeners, if you would, please.
Michelle Manning 12:00
So sex is something that you do. And sexuality is something that you feel. And often sexuality is not related to sex in any way, shape, or form. Because it is energy. It is vitality, it is a feeling that we have. And in my very cheeky way of describing it, I will tell people, you don’t look like a porn star. But you feel like one, when your sense of sexuality is very, very strong, you feel like you can take on the world and sex has nothing to do with that.
Christine Gautreaux 12:38
Do you think the word sensuality is interchangeable with that word with sexuality, or those two different between sensuality and sexuality?
Michelle Manning 12:47
So I think in common vernacular, in common speak, I think that a lot of people will use that even professionals will use that interchangeably. But I happen to love words and definitions. And sometimes I can take them very, very literally. And so when I think about sensuality, I think about the senses. Whereas sexuality is more about energy. Because we have a very strong sense of sensuality, that just simply is provoked or stimulated by whatever is going on with you sexually. You know, whereas sexuality, yeah, it’s something that kind of comes from within and it and I know there are people that have felt it, that energy, certainly from within again, it has nothing to do with being thirsty. It has nothing to do with arousal, desire, anything along those lines. It’s almost just a type of Jawad Aviv, just so we got zest for life, I have so much positive Juju moving through my system, I just feel so alive. You know, and it really does come from a core place within and like I said, I think a lot of people women in particular, have felt that they just never considered it sexuality, because that is such a four letter word for our culture.
Christine Gautreaux 14:06
Right? Well, and especially to me, we have I just want to stay because we have listeners all over the world. But uh, you know, and different cultures approach it different ways. But especially in America with our Puritan background, you know, I when I was doing foster care and adoption, at the beginning of my career as a social worker, I would do home studies. And I think I’ve told the story on air before but you know, home studies, we would look at all areas of people’s lives. And people were more comfortable talking to me about their sex life than they were about finances, but even their sex life. It was hard like I used to teach. I used to teach about sex abuse. And I would have to get people to where they can even talk about regular words that were associated with sex before we can even talk about abuse, because there’s so we’re so trained I mean, in this culture to not like, especially as good girls, right? You know, we’re taught not to talk about it not to name it not to, you know, or at least that’s been my experience. What about you, Shannon? And Michelle?
Shannon M. 15:15
Yeah, no, absolutely. And it’s interesting. I had it. There’s a couple of in this happens a lot, a couple of connections that I haven’t made. So this conversation right now, right. But when we talk about our book for women connected in wisdom, it’s actually reproductive system that I’m talking about. And me finding out through Oprah, that woman has three holes, I was like, What are you talking about? You have to? Yeah, totally. We go, there’s number one or number two is and, you know, there’s only a few numbers, it’s not 10 numbers, what do you mean, the third, what do you and sure enough, I went and found out for myself that, wow, you know, so at the age, I’m sure having already said I’m gonna wait till I’m married to have sex, but didn’t even know that I had to hold the hole to do it didn’t know where it was, you know, that was the connection, that I just made that at the age when I had said, This is what I’m going to do. I still didn’t know that. That’s important.
Michelle Manning 16:10
You know, that is such an egregious mistake, for lack of a better word that I think our culture makes, in that I get very passionate, I get very frustrated when it comes to these types of issues. Because I think I get incensed. I think that’s essentially where it comes from. And then I feel very impassioned, because, as you pointed out, Christine, in the introduction, sex is something that affects every single person and animals, every single person on this planet, how is it that we grow up, especially in our culture, having zero concept, let alone knowledge of what this means? And why? And I’m sure there’s going to be a lot of pushback to this statement. But why this is not sex, money and food, aka nutrition, sex, money, and food, why these are not taught at age appropriate steps, age appropriate ways, every single step of education. You know, why are we not talking about body agency to children that are in first grade, because body agency is something that they can comprehend. They can integrate that it’s not offensive, as far as I’m concerned, recognizing that you have agency over your own body is not offensive. But I know a lot of people would feel that way. Right? Because if we taught these lessons in very age appropriate ways to the people or children that need it at those times, they might be more informed to say, hey, that doesn’t feel very good. And I don’t like that. Right? Instead of being very
Christine Gautreaux 17:43
boundaries. Yeah. I have a very funny story that I’ll share with you all, from when I my daughter was four. So and I won’t even name which one so they don’t get embarrassed. So you know, I was a social worker. So I was teaching the staff, I believe in this stuff. When I got my master’s degree. I got it. And with a specialization of working with families who had people in families who had been through sexual abuse, so it was, you know, it’s it was my life’s work at that time. And I was very clear that I was going to raise my kids to, you know, talk about this stuff, and B. So, one day, my daughter had gotten out of the bathtub, and she was laying on the bed with a towel wrapped around her and she started to touch herself. And I thought, Okay, this is a good time to have a talk about you know, our body parts and naming our body parts and things like this. So I start to talk and I evidently went on a little too long. I don’t even know because she was probably for at this time. So I’m really big on two or three minutes you like get her eyes start to glaze over. And by this time, my husband is standing at the doorway listening to me like kind of soaking it in, like, Oh, I see what she’s doing here. I’m paying attention, right. And so her eyes are glazed over and I look at her I go so if somebody touches you inappropriately, what do you say? Right? So for any parent listening, when you say the magic words, what do you say? She looks up at me with this very sweet grin. And she goes, thank you
sell out. Professional, go like it or go right. It’s not easy, y’all. Even when you have a degree in it. Like it’s not,
you know, it’s not easy.
Michelle Manning 19:30
It’s not but in that example that you’ve shared, how hard was that? It’s not easy, but how hard was it? You know? Yeah, right. It’s in the privacy of your own home. But that levity is something that can be integrated in any way that we talk about
Shannon M. 19:46
that right. Yeah,
so to be so spooky.
So that’s what I want to get to right I think is definitely and we could continue to go into the reasons of why we don’t talk about it more and what that looks like but I think pesticides that were that we’re used to living on, you know, I want to go to the other side. So when we’re talking about intellectual wellness, right, we’re talking about sex, how we can think about it from a healthy place as women. What about that side? And what do you see as the sex therapist of how we could apply it in a healthy way?
Michelle Manning 20:20
Okay, so sometimes I feel like a unicorn, even though that I’m not because I use the term whenever I’m in my office, one of the first things that I do, especially if we’re talking about abuse, is I will tell them, we are not going to refer to this as sex abuse, we are going to refer to this as sexualized abuse, because one of the things that I need to do that I feel is incredibly important for me, is understanding that what is happening to you, in those types of very traumatic circumstances is not sex, there is not sex in any capacity, at whatsoever, it is every bit as physical, as what would be considered physical abuse. But black by the black guy doesn’t necessarily involve a pleasure. I did quote, you know, the Eric with round pleasure, even though it doesn’t involve that a black is so much easier to suggest that that is so much more harmful. Whereas when someone and usually one of the things that I see to more directly answer your question, Jen, and one of the things that I see is that it’s usually the adults that are kind of ready to venture into that type of work. And when I have the adults that are ready to venture into that type of work, I begin getting them to challenge and question the type of terminology that we put on things and how that terminology can disrupt that healing process, how it creates so much confusion. And so with women, getting them to really question and possibly critique, you know, some of those terms and how much they correspond with what could be considered a natural process. You know, you don’t want to corrupt a natural process. You want to make a distinction from what is natural. What is incredibly not natural. Abuse is not natural, it happens. It exists, but it’s not natural.
Christine Gautreaux 22:25
Well, and that I love how you’re saying that, Michelle, because there’s so much shame attached to natural responses and natural and normal sex, that it’s hard to differentiate sometimes for people what’s natural and normal? And what is what is abuse. So yeah, so you know, teasing those out. And so because so many women I’ve met and worked with don’t even know that they were abused.
Michelle Manning 22:48
No, not at all, not because of those physiological responses, you know, that would be considered healthy simply because of anatomy. But then it gets so intertwined. And so confused, then when you put something like sex, that four letter word, you know, when you put something like sex in front of something that is devastating. Well, now they have to process that devastation, in addition to the fact that Well, wait, I’m supposed to like this. But wait, I, you know, and then it just glitches out. And then you have a lot of women who can be very passive in the bedroom, remaining passive in the bedroom, simply because they can, because they quote unquote, glitch out, they don’t know what to do. They don’t know how to process it. I don’t feel like dealing with it. I don’t feel like confronting it. So therefore, I will just remain passive and get it over with.
Shannon M. 23:39
So are you saying that? Are you saying that that happens if somebody has experienced sexualized abuse, or you’re saying that women who are used to their voice not being heard, take that same habit and go to the bedroom with not worrying about putting anything into it that can be received?
Michelle Manning 24:02
I would definitely say both. It definitely was on both sides. But I think, you know, going back to what Christine was saying about some of the people that she knows, yeah, you just have no idea what’s happened. And again, you know, because you don’t know how to process what has happened or even whether it truly was abusive or not. You just don’t
Christine Gautreaux 24:25
want it because so many people because it’s so taboo to talk about it right. Essentially, I thought it Yeah, like it’s, it’s amazing to me, how many people and this was I was very naive when I was a young social worker, and when I was getting my degree and things like that, I even therapist and um, this may be controversial and I would love your opinion on it, Michelle, but you know, my opinion is not all therapists can talk about sex like you got it like it is If they haven’t done their own work, and they haven’t worked through these issues, like even saying the words can be tricky for them. So if you are going if you need help with this, if you are feeling like you’re unfulfilled, I mean, I would, I’d like to you to know, I’d like you to state in a second Michelle, why people come to you, and how, why somebody should go to a sex therapist. But I just want to say, for our listeners, this is important that not every therapist can talk about this. And if this is the issue you want to talk about, I want you to tell us, Michelle, how they know their therapist can talk about it,
Michelle Manning 25:34
right. So it is an I, I will use very colorful language, you know, to describe this, but it’s disgusting, how many people in my field have no clue about how to discuss this have talked about this, why they would not take any interest in it. Things have changed. Here I go, I’m getting very passionate. Things have changed since I graduated from my graduate program. But the graduate program that I graduated from is an accredited program. So most if not every person with my licensure is going to graduate from the same program, and sex and or sexuality, let alone anything in revolt, or excuse me, involving orientation, you know, on the spectrum, anything LGBTQ IA? You know, that’s, that’s an elective, if you’re lucky, if you’re you
Christine Gautreaux 26:27
know, what I looked up in preparation for the show that I was shocked by the numbers I looked up on, it was like zippy, a, it was a career expert. So I was looking for statistics, and you may have different ones. But it only said that there are 910 Sex therapists in the United States,
Michelle Manning 26:45
right? That doesn’t surprise me at all. And to be honest, so I’m gonna get just technical with you for a second. You have to go through, here come my opinions, you have to go through a process, a continuing education process in order to be technically certified as a sex therapist, in everything that I’ve seen from those programs. It’s basically a racket, they’re not educating you in the way that they that you really need to be educated. They’re just collecting a lot of money. And the issue and the reason why I kind of frame it as a racket is because the amount of money that you invest in order to gain that certification doesn’t ever come back to you in respect to insurance reimbursement. And it just, it doesn’t change the scale at all.
Christine Gautreaux 27:34
And I would guess that there’s a lot of people like me who that was not my specialty, but I got a lot of training and knowledge of it because of my internship. So what are some key factors if somebody’s looking for help in this arena, and I have more questions, and we want to get more into it. But while we’re on this subject, if somebody’s looking for help, what are some things or words they need to look for? I always love Psychology Today to start looking for good therapists for folks, because there’s other ways to look for good therapists through your insurance and other things. But what are some of those key words you would have people look for, to know that person they wanted to talk to could talk about if you
Michelle Manning 28:12
as a client are broaching the subject of sex and sexuality in any capacity, even to the most mild degree, and you get a sense that the person that you’re working with has any type of embarrassment, or is just kind of trying to skirt or doesn’t really have the adequate language, you know, in which to discuss these things, do not go deeper, just abort the mission, do not go deeper and just stick where you are, because they don’t know how to discuss it. And you would apply at least I would hope you would apply the same type of critical lens. When you’re working with a doctor, if you are going to a doctor a kind of ecologist, you know, for example, and you happen to say I have some symptoms, you know, gynecologist, I have some symptoms, and the kind of ecologist says, Oh, is it your little piece that’s hurting, then you wouldn’t necessarily want to go any deeper with that particular practitioner,
Christine Gautreaux 29:12
please tell me that’s never happened. Oh, and all
Michelle Manning 29:15
of these things happen. That’s what is so frustrating. You know, all of these things happen in that way. The stories that I’ve heard, or even the stories that I could share that have happened to me personally, I am not alone. This is the moment where I’m not a unicorn because I bring it we all have you
Christine Gautreaux 29:29
like I would lose my mind if a gynecologist said that to me, right? Like, are you kidding, y’all? If that has happened to you out there, run, right? Don’t don’t walk run out of that office and report them.
Michelle Manning 29:47
Honestly, you know, that needs to be emphasized because one of the things that I’ve noticed is, people have more and I don’t really like to use this word, but I think it’s the truth. People have more reverence for the mental health provider that they’re working with them. They do a medical doctor, because the power differential that exists in my office, even though that is not something that I promote, but I have to be honest, and recognizing that it is there, that power differential is brutal. And the notion of being very candid with your mental health practitioner scares a lot of people, because within that power differential is this kind of inherent notion that we have the power to make someone crazy. You know, we have the power to just code diagnostically in a way that can hurt someone. And the truth of the matter is, that is true. You know, we do have that, quote, unquote, power, but so did clients. And that’s something that I don’t think they expect. The clients can say, What diagnosis are you using for me? But nobody in my office has ever asked that question. I will tell them because I like them to have that information that’s informed consent. As far as I’m concerned, this is the way that I see it. What do you think about that? Right, you know, but very rarely does someone fire their practitioner,
Christine Gautreaux 31:09
right? I always I have this conversation with clients all the time with friends and my coaching clients, when I’m referring them out to therapy. It’s like, it’s okay to go several times and realize it’s not a match and say, No, thank you, and I’m done. And that you have that power. And yes, it’s frustrating. And yes, you have to start over again and tell your story to somebody else. But it’s worth it. And I always say listen to your inner authority, like listen to your body and listen to yourself. And if something feels off, listen to that. It’s just like when we’re talking about all of this, right. And it’s very interesting that mental health is coming up at the same time, we’re talking about sexuality, because, you know, those are two things. I think we talk about the least in American culture, like it’s, and so much they’re tied together, right? Um, they’re tied together. So Michelle, when people come to you, what are they? What are they most often come for? Or what is like one of the number one questions you get asked as a sex therapist.
Michelle Manning 32:12
So it’s, it’s interesting and somewhat ironic, in that they don’t ask me questions about sex and sexuality, even though they know what I happen to specialize in, because people are petrified to talk about it. You know, the only populations that are very, very open to discuss it, are those that are within the kink communities. And the one reason why they are open to discuss that is because they know that whatever issue they’re bringing to the table has nothing to do with sex. And as someone who can work with those populations, I also know it has nothing to do with sex. So the quote unquote, sensational aspects of sex, I can so easily bypass because I know what to listen to, you know, but outside of those very specific populations, people get stuck. And they don’t want to say it, because they don’t want anything to be wrong with them, especially sexual dysfunction. I mean, if people have a hard time just discussing anything as natural as sex, can you imagine what happens if we’re talking about sexual dysfunction, and that doesn’t even have to, you know, involve anatomy that can involve the brain, the soul, the heart, the gut, you know, however, you want to label that. And so it doesn’t get discussed nearly nearly as often as it needs to. So I provoke the conversation.
Shannon M. 33:38
And I think that’s why in I love all of the pieces of our title, women connected and wisdom, right. But that’s why the connected part is so important, because when you share your story, and Michelle shares her story, and Christy shares her story and these details overlap is, oh, I’m not by myself. But when you’re isolated, and you’re overthinking stuff, and you’ve never talked about it and there’s you feel like no, I’m just it’s functional. And this is just me when actually, if you drink kombucha and you’re in your digestive system, pH was balanced, your vaginal pH would be balanced and you wouldn’t have as many infections and you will be able to enjoy yourself a little bit more. And it’s just switching what you drink or switching what you eat. But if we’re scared to talk about it, then we’re never going to find out those tips and pieces of wisdom.
Michelle Manning 34:25
That’s exactly right.
Christine Gautreaux 34:27
Hello, I don’t we’ve got time, but I don’t want to lose. I don’t want to not talk about our title today.
Shannon M. 34:37
To talk about the title, don’t worry
Christine Gautreaux 34:39
that it may take a little time. So Michelle, when we were doing our coffee and chat we were coming up with titles and you said you wanted the title to be Stop faking orgasms. Yeah, so let’s jump into that and why did that bubble up as your number one let’s talk about this because it
Michelle Manning 34:58
drives me insane and when you Talk about how many women don’t you know, many women aren’t aware of many women don’t whatever that may be. Women in the 21st century that are coming to my office to address mental health issues are completely clueless in recognizing that faking an orgasm is problematic. Like, absolutely, like, when I look at them, they’ll they’ll very casually mention it as if it’s just a thing. Oh, yeah. So I got kind of bored. And I didn’t really like what he was doing. So I just, you know, kind of just let him finish. And he trusted that I was done. So then we can be done. And that wasn’t what they were bringing in as the issue. So then I said, Okay, wait, stop the music. Hold on here. What is happening? And why are you doing that? And when I ask these questions, I’m not coming at them with a, you know, finger wag is and you shouldn’t be doing that. I’m simply asking, Why are you doing that? Oh, because it’s just not worth it? Why isn’t it worth it? And then we start really, because I love Socrates. So I love with Socratic questioning, you know, and so I really will just start asking these questions to get the responses and the responses are typically it’s just not worth dealing with. So we have something that is so important to every person. And what half more than half of our population in this culture is saying is, it’s just not worth dealing with. You know,
Christine Gautreaux 36:23
now, when they’re saying it’s just not worth dealing with? Is it the feelings? Is it the connection and the conversation that it would take to get it there? What have you seen in your experience, like, what is? What’s not worth dealing with? emotional investment?
Michelle Manning 36:40
Or? No, it’s the conversation is the conversation because conflict and confrontation are also four letter words in my office?
Shannon M. 36:52
So and this is my thing. And I didn’t get it. But maybe after reading this, this book that talked about the culture of silence, it makes more sense. Why does having the conversation here or anywhere? Why does it have to be conflict, that when I again, I’m not everybody else, I get that, you know, but just because we’re having a conversation, it may be uncomfortable, it doesn’t have to be a confrontation, it doesn’t have to be a conflict, if it is, that might point to the wellness of the person that you’re talking to, or the relationship between the two people. But if we’re close enough for us to be talking about sex and orgasms, then it one of the standards to be healthy needs to be open communication. And, you know, a hey, if you’re if you’re doing something I don’t really like, let me tell you, because if you were scratching a board with some nails for 15 minutes, I’m not trying to listen to that. You know what I mean? Yeah, please.
Michelle Manning 37:50
One of the conversations that I was listening to one of the podcasts that you guys did, and and this is going to be a very loose paraphrase, one of the things that you had reflected on as an example, you know, to contribute to the show, was approaching confrontation with curiosity, you know, approaching confrontation with curiosity. And that’s something again, that I teach people in my office, it’s like, be curious, like a three year old, don’t be judgmental, like a 40 year old, you know, be curious, like a three year old, because when a three year old comes up to you and says, Oh, my God, what is that weird thing on your face? You tell them, It’s a blemish, okay. And then they go in play? You know, there’s no judgement in the questions, because they’re just simply curious. And so I think when you approach these things, not feeling as if something has to be right or wrong, you know, but rather approaching it with curiosity, like, Hey, did you know that I feel this way when that thing happens? No, I didn’t know that. Okay. Well, let me let me inform you, because this is what ends up happening.
Christine Gautreaux 38:51
Do you think that? It is, I don’t know, I think about how much it’s tied to media, and how much we don’t have authentic conversations about sex and sexuality. But people look at media and they look at, oh, this is the way it’s supposed to be. Or this is the way I’m supposed to feel. Or you know, no, I’m, I mean, real transparency, y’all like I’m coming from a 28 year manette monogamous relationship. So I’m in a different place in my life, like, I’ve had a partner and we have these conversations we have from the very beginning, I think it was because of my education and where I was at at the time, like, we just have these conversations, but I know that I’m really lucky and privileged to have that. And, and I was also raised in a very sex positive household in the fact that that we weren’t taught it was a bad thing. We were taught it was a healthy thing. Now, of course, there were all the conditions, you know, it was a healthy thing between married people and stuff. But, you know, I’m in that dynamic, so I don’t, but I think about, you know, the shoulds and I think about what the Media teaches us or tells us or doesn’t teach us, and how people, I think about fragile egos too, I think about how often in our society in this patriarchal society we live in, that the male sexuality is especially tied to their performance in bed. Right? And so that I feel like sometimes women bringing it up is a quote unquote, threat. Have you seen that? Or what do you what’s your feedback on that?
Michelle Manning 40:32
Um, um, I’m actually going to take it from the beginning, we’re going to take it from the top. So this post is, and the shirts were the impetus for my books. Because what I noticed very early on in my in my work was people were coming in feeling as if they were having original thoughts with these shirts and these suppose stews. And it became very evident to me that conventional ideologies were infiltrating their own ideas of what they needed to be how they should function. And I didn’t like that too much, because I don’t like arbitrary rhetoric, arbitrary factors, dictating and informing how someone should pursue their own desires, how someone should react, you know, how someone should confront. And so I got real pissed when I started seeing that in my office. And so then, you know, I started the process of writing. But I think that if you’re looking at this from a gendered perspective, it’s interesting, because I think that sexuality is elusive for both of us, for men and women. Sex is something that is just per convention shoved in our face all the time. But we so very rarely see pleasure, we always see. And I’m going to be very crude in my language. But I want to be crude to emphasize how ridiculous this is. We’re all familiar with putting the thing in the hole. Everybody knows how to do that, because it’s reinforced over and over and over and over and over again. But what if that’s not your jam? What if then what, because we don’t have any variation? We don’t have any spectrum? You know, when it comes to other ways of receiving pleasure, or even other partners? You know, when it comes to receiving pleasure? Maybe we want to be monogamous, maybe we want to be poly? Where are the Handbooks for that? Because there aren’t any, you know, and so I think that, excuse me, men can be just as clueless as women, oftentimes, and because of that fact, they are doing the thing, but they’re not necessarily enjoying the thing. You know, and I think that that can go, regardless of orientation. Sometimes, I’m sorry, go ahead. No, I was just gonna say that I think that orientation can lead to, at times more evolved ways of thinking, because we have such a heteronormative society, that if you don’t ascribe to that script, then you have to kind of branch out on your own kind of like I did, and do a lot of independent study on how these things work. And so I think that can lead to a more evolved way of looking at things which can be helpful, you know, especially in the bedroom. But for those of us again, those of us that have been affected, and even you know, if your orientation happens to go in a different direction, you can still be affected by conventional ideologies. And that can still find its way into the bedroom who is left do the thing, let’s do the thing three to five times a week, therefore will be normal. But I don’t like normal in my office. I like healthy. Because healthy isn’t.
Shannon M. 43:43
I like that I don’t like No, I like healthy, that’s a t shirt or something like. And we could always go deeper, you know, with where things come from. Again, I think that when we talk about a culture of silence and us talking about Michelle, you said three things you said food, sex, and what money the way that is portrayed. One. Again, TV is entertainment. Now, this is not supposed to be curriculum. This is not real life, you know what I mean? So, especially if it’s being sold or advertised a certain way, they’re supposed to look like they’re enjoying themselves every single time and 28 years, it might not be exactly like that every single time. We gotta be realistic, you know. But I also think that it’s interesting. And I used to be one of my favorite shows, I don’t know how I feel about it now. Because I’ve realized in college with Law and Order SVU we’re genuinely making entertainment out of it. And then when it happens, we don’t believe them. What do you mean United because we’re so used to it just being entertainment and I’m sipping my whatever and eating whatever you eat when you’re watching TV, and it’s not. It makes us disconnect, you know? So when we talk about how we think about things, it’s interesting that it’s Sex is so publicized, right? The woman’s body is always sexualized no matter what it is. But when we think about actually enjoying it and getting pleasure from it now, nobody knows what to say. But I think like you say, it’s because of the conditioning and the way that we see it all the time. And because we don’t always have the opportunity to balance it with the real life conversation, even if we don’t want it to be that ends up being the programming that we have, because that’s been the most the most the majority of the messages that we’ve received. As far as the the different orientations having different levels of comfortability with it. I think that comes from having to break down those stories, you know, you know, you know, for a fact that because you are a lesbian people say you’re this way, but you’re actually this way that makes it that makes it completely changed. Well, what about this, they said that, but I found that this, this, and it gives you the freedom to actually write your own story about a lot of stuff. And I’ve had the opportunity to do that with a lot of stuff as a young black woman, I’m not supposed to be doing a lot of reading, writing books, doing a lot of stuff I’m not supposed to be able to do or get pleasure from, you know, so rewriting those stories isn’t very important. And especially something like this, when it’s it connects so many different parts of who you are to get to an orgasm, like we’re talking about that’s a lot
Michelle Manning 46:22
on conventional ideologies. So bringing that you know, into why women fake orgasms, for example. That is, so that’s the curriculum that you’re talking about Shannon, you know, because again, we see that dramatized in so many aspects, and No, buddy questions it and you have a lot of quote unquote, feminist programs, I won’t name any names, but there was a feminist, quote, unquote, feminist program in the 90s. That would display a lot of these kind of suppose do’s and shoulds. And they never questioned it ever. Thinking orgasms was just one, I had to fake it, because I just was so tired of what you know, what they were doing, or whatever. It’s like, no, that’s, that’s not fodder. That’s a sticking point. And
Shannon M. 47:15
for me, it’s the it’s, it’s deeper than an orgasm, it’s, I’m okay to know that I didn’t get what I wanted, or I need it. And I’m never going to tell anybody about it. That’s like life in general. So instead, it’s, you know what I mean? Like, I think it’s very important, hey, if my food is wrong, I’m gonna say something about it, I realized that I was I used to take the stuff to breakfast champions, right. And this place finally got my breakfast, right? And that’s what like, wow, three, four times, and they got it right today. And then I realized, that means they’ve gotten it wrong every other time. And you haven’t said anything wrong, I need to use my voice, if I’m expecting to get what I ordered, you know, and if you care about this person, and you’re intimate enough to have sex with them, I would hope that they will be receptive to that, you know, even now, in the job market. When we talk about occupational wellness, we have managers who are nervous to talk to people and coach people, because we don’t want them to leave. But maybe they’re leaving, because they’re not receiving the discipline. You know, how is that on a tear the, or the coaching? Or the development? How is that gonna tear the relationship apart if you don’t tell your partner what you like, but this other person’s here, telling them exactly what they like, it makes sense why the dynamics go the way that they go? Or why we’re never self satisfied if we didn’t give that person the opportunity to try what might have worked or to let down our guards and see where it could go with this person. Right. I
Christine Gautreaux 48:39
think that’s the other myth, right that TV and media gives us is that people are naturally good lovers like that. They it’s, it’s this instant skill that people are born with and that they automatically No, and they can read your mind. And they like, I’m like, oh, yeah, no, yeah.
Shannon M. 49:00
Yeah. Well, the body watches and I’m like, watch I say you see how she just fell in love with him for no reason. Come on.
Michelle Manning 49:08
This guy get out of here. tried having sex on stairs, because that’s not fun. And there is nothing beautiful or comfortable. And yet
Christine Gautreaux 49:22
those are like two places that are in the media. Yeah, well, that’s so sad. Yeah. I mean, like, the thought of that is not sexy.
Michelle Manning 49:37
I think I just I really have to speak to this because there are so many layers, you know, involved in understanding and and insight. And sure, I can say you don’t want to practice faking your orgasm because you need to use your voice and you need to be more expressive. I could just leave it there, but it doesn’t land there. As you’re pointing out Because where it needs to land is, wait a minute, by not expressing that I don’t give my partner or even partners an opportunity to correct. Why would I deny them that? Because maybe looking good could come up me saying that doesn’t feel very good when you do it like that? You No, great.
Shannon M. 50:21
That’s what we’re talking about, like, you know, instead of you just letting it go,
Michelle Manning 50:26
yes. And, Christine, going back to what you were saying. It’s like, I will tell people in my office, every new experience, regardless of how much experience you think you have, every new experience is a virginal experience. Every new one, you have a new partner, you have a new situation, you have new energy, you have everything new to discover. And so if you go in, and I hate the fact that we don’t have another word for Virgin, and we really don’t, because we’re so limited in our language, but you go in with that type of lens of wonderment and discovery. And then you recognize, okay, it’s a journey with everybody. And we all have to figure out how this works. And let’s have fun with it. It’s going to be messy, it’s going to be weird. It’s gonna be awkward. Yeah, you know.
Christine Gautreaux 51:17
And I also just want to say, too, and I know, we’re past time, so we got to start wrapping this up, y’all. But um, I also want to say, even in the same relationships, because as we age, our bodies change, as our hormones, our preferences, our bodies, our intellect, like all different, you know, that you can be with the same part, and it still changes. So having those conversations and not assuming, and not, and not being silent. And the other thing that kept coming up for me, and we just may have to have you back, Michelle, because this is we could keep talking and we’re like, but the other thing that came up for me is I work with a lot of folks that are not in touch with their bodies, like they come to me because they want to be embodied, they want to like sometimes they’re so in their heads, they don’t feel the rest of their body or trauma has prevented them from that. So I just want to give a shout out to those folks, if you’re listening that, you know, there are ways like working with a sex therapist working with an embodiment coach, there are ways because some people may be listening and thinking, I don’t know what I like, like, I’m so disconnected. I don’t know what I like, or if I like it at all, or I haven’t had sex in 10 years. So I don’t know, you know, who knows? Like everybody’s got different thoughts and in different experiences. But I think I think what I’m gaining from this entire conversation is y’all it’s okay to talk about it. Reach there are people trained to talk about it. So reach out and get support and get connected to somebody if if you need support and help around it, or feel unfulfilled.
Shannon M. 52:53
Oh, and Michelle, before we talk about our wisdom in action, I want to ask you one more question. We were talking about the benefits of orgasms and not want to miss out on that. Right? What are some of the benefits of orgasms?
Michelle Manning 53:08
Um, honestly, the first thing that comes to mind is a physiological benefit. You know, it’s cathartic. It’s a workout. And it’s a very small one, I guess, depending relatively speaking, you know, but incredibly cathartic. Now, what’s interesting is, an orgasm is a byproduct of a great experience. Because the great experience can be had with or without a climax, right? You know, and so that’s not necessarily what we’re going for. Because that strong sense of sexuality doesn’t always involve an orgasm. Sometimes it never involves an orgasm. But if you have that sense, and that sense of sexuality transfers into the bedroom, you’re gonna have a good time no matter what. So, orgasms are great because they can curl your toes. orgasms are great because they can be transcendent. But so can a lot of other things too.
Shannon M. 54:03
I hear you. Okay, thank you so much.
Christine Gautreaux 54:06
Stress relief. Can we live without a partner? Right. Amen. Sister, we believe Community Care.
Shannon M. 54:25
Hashtag wisdom and let’s see. Let’s see. Yes, Michelle, I will have you go first. You are expert for your intellectual bonus this week. What are you going to do? What is your wisdom and action?
Michelle Manning 54:40
I am going to go rollerskating because that’s what aligns me. It I am I am not a sensual person. So stimulating my senses is something that is very, very difficult to do. I need a sledgehammer in order to make that happen. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t like them stimulated and So rollerskating is the connection that I have that wakes me up in a way that aligns me. And I have music I have great people to look at. I have speed because I like moving fast. You know, so that’s what I will be putting into action to bring me closer to wisdom. Love it. Love it.
Shannon M. 55:19
My wisdom and action is Ooh, so many.
Michelle Manning 55:25
Yes, so many because I am really shallow compared to you guys.
Christine Gautreaux 55:30
That’s not true.
Shannon M. 55:32
The deep, okay, like, the darkness. I will say. And I like this, we were talking about it before the show, right? The only black and white that we really have in life is breathing or not breathing. So I’m gonna say hashtag breathe. And then next week, I’m going from 28 to 29 It is my birthday. And so I am going out into the sun, the beach, kind of rest and relax. So I will say breezy.
Christine Gautreaux 56:01
happy early birthday, my friend.
Shannon M. 56:03
Thank you so much.
Christine Gautreaux 56:05
My wisdom and action this week is to hashtag communicate. So I think regarding this discussion, but also like just about recovery and communicating our needs, I think in all aspects of our life are important. So touching base with myself to know what are my needs this week, and hashtag communicate. So with the people in my life that support me, but yeah, Michelle, this has been such an awesome conversation. Thanks so much for being here. And just being who you are and your work in the world and willing to come on and talk. We’re gonna put your website on our show notes. But people can find you let me make sure I’ve got it right. Hang on just a second. So people can find you at your website, which is Michelle l manning.com. And we’ll put that in the show notes. So they can find you. And they can also go check out your books and see what you’re out to other so yeah, now your your practice is in what state?
Michelle Manning 57:11
I’m in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Christine Gautreaux 57:13
All right, Albuquerque. We have some good friends in Albuquerque. All right. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here today. And thank you for being a fan of women connected in wisdom podcast and, and being our special guest today. We appreciate you. Thank you. So
Michelle Manning 57:27
it’s an honor. Thank you so much for having me.
Christine Gautreaux 57:30
All right. We’re soon friends. Yes. I know we are so fast time and we have so much to talk about
Shannon M. 57:39
social construct or strike.
Christine Gautreaux 57:44
What a great conversation. So first of all, I want to give a shout out for your shirt for people that are listening, not seeing but you’re wearing a you are visible, rare strides glow in dark concert, which is from our friend joven Teresa’s special. Specialist. Event and concert.
Shannon M. 58:03
Absolutely shout out. In the rare diseases, you know, it’s so important to make sure that again, like we talked about the things that aren’t talked about, get delved into and take taken care of. So Mother’s Day just passed. That’s a huge source of shallow glow, right is the moms taking care of themselves because the moms are sick and passing away. And this Mother’s Day again, I was telling you before the call, you are on that list of mother figures that mother figures in friends, right, it’s in that category, and with you not being okay. It’s like, we got to take care of the women because what we do, they’re not here. So I love supporting a good cause. And we had a great time out there the park it was beautiful,
Christine Gautreaux 58:46
huh? Yeah, hated to miss it. And I just shout out to show vantrease taller one of our first guests, Dr. Joe vz, who’s doing an incredible workout in this world. And we’ll put a link to that organization in the chat. One other thing I wanted to mention before we go because I’ve watched it you know, I’ve I’ve gotten to watch TV this last week in a way that I haven’t in two years. I was watching Dr. Brene Brown’s Atlas of the heart special on HBO Max and y’all it goes right along with this discussion that we’re having. Because it’s talking about feelings and it’s talking about language and word girl I wish I would have brought this up with Michelle because she’s a word girl too. But you know, identifying those feelings so we can have these conversations but I’m going to put a link to it in the show notes because I highly recommend it. I have the book I’ve been reading the book but the special right on the money if you like if you like to get your media that way it is. You know, they did surveys of 1000s of people and the most commonly three name feelings came down to three feelings can you guess those feelings that people are most in touch with?
Shannon M. 1:00:00
All right. Oh that they’re most in touch with in general. Anger is probably on there. I think most people would probably say that they’re sad, maybe especially after COVID. Right? Probably sad anger, sadness. And maybe happiness because that’s the one that people talk a lot whether they have it or not, I don’t know. Oh, boom,
Christine Gautreaux 1:00:21
boom, you got three. But you think about only three. Like, I mean, you think about this discussion we just had right thinking about orgasms and sex and pleasure. Like, where’s ecstasy? Where’s joy? Where’s delight? You know, where’s frustration? Where’s resentment? Where’s disappointment? You know, all those feelings could come into that discussion we just had around this.
Shannon M. 1:00:45
But we can talk about that on the mental and emotional. I would love to Episode Yeah.
Christine Gautreaux 1:00:50
All right, my friend. Well, anything else we need to say before we jump off here for the week?
Shannon M. 1:00:56
No, no, I hope you get some rest tonight. And as always, I appreciate you being here today. Episode 67. Absolutely, yes. Okay. Ladies, thank you so much for joining us on our show. We will be back next week.
And don’t forget, be well be wise. And we hope to see you soon.
Christine Gautreaux 1:01:20
See you next week.
Unknown Speaker 1:01:26
Thanks for listening. This has been the women connected and wisdom podcast on air live on Wednesdays at 5 pm. Eastern via Facebook and YouTube. Be sure to like share and subscribe be part of the conversation and get connected at women connected in wisdom.com.
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